Talk:William I, German Emperor

Add-on to: Proposed move to William I, German Emperor

(section added, since previous section is closed and should be left undisturbed LMSchmitt 12:53, 26 September 2020 (UTC))

I propose that the name remain 'Wilhelm,' rather than William. The idea that the article be called 'William I' is absurd. During his own lifetime, he was styled and referred to as 'Wilhelm'; this was his personal and dynastic name, not 'William.' We don't refer to Ivan IV of Russia/ the Terrible/Vasilyevich as 'John IV of Russia' or 'John IV Son of Basil.' Doesn't anyone else see the absurdity of this proposed move? The history books may call him 'William,' but that doesn't make them right.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by MDunn1937 (talk • contribs) 04:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Nor are they wrong; but as the authoritative sources, they're what Wikipedia follows.--Kotniski (talk) 07:51, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

No, you see, they are wrong. They may be authoritative, but they are not infallible. Simply because the English version of his name was 'William' does not mean that a German leader should be referred to as such. He was named Wilhelm, not William. It's actually a prime example of cultural arrogance to claim the right to call persons of other nationalities by the translated versions of their names. Is Juan Carlos I normally referred to as 'John Charles I' in the news? Unless I'm wrong, he's not. Therefore, the argument that authoritative works refer to this person as 'William' fails, it being common practice in the past to translate names to the respective language of the translator. Consequently, the implication is that books written during the 19th/20th centuries, when this practice was commonplace, are justified because Wilhelm lived in the 1800s. I'm surprised that no one else appears to recognise how ridiculous, and even mildly offensive, this is. Referring to foreign persons of note by their birth-names may be a relatively new practise that some might see as an exercise in political correctness, however, in this instance, I believe that this is just that, correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.181.28.87 (talk) 13:56, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Many (most?) people from history - even other English people, if you go far enough back - have their names spelt and spoken differently from the way they themselves spelt or spoke them. It's just the way the English language does things (and other languages do the same thing). One day perhaps people will come around to doing it the way you think of as "correct" - when they do, Wikipedia will naturally follow.--Kotniski (talk) 14:43, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

To anonymous IP 75.181.28.87 who wrote: "I'm surprised that no one else appears to recognise how ridiculous, and even mildly offensive, this is." Please read the discussion. Some strongly opposed the move from "Wilhelm" to "William".

--Frania W. (talk) 14:57, 16 July 2010 (UTC).

To understand why English usage was as it was (modern usage differs), you need to notice that the current British monarchy were originally German and that an earlier monarch was Dutch. Names were translated in deference to public sentiment. Several other empires have routinely translated the name of the ruler into local forms, at least as far back as Xerxes. AJRG (talk) 16:35, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

No one would balk at Guillaume I, empereur allemand in French or Isabel II de Reino Unido in Spanish... English, however, must always bend to non-English forms? Seven Letters 16:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Protesting that "I just don't like it" is not an argument. Translating foreign names, especially of royals, is not "cultural arrogance" - everyone does it. A German colleague tried to suggest the English were arrogant for going around the world renaming places into English (Munich, Rhine, Black Forest, etc) until I pointed out that Germans did exactly the same (Schottland, Kapstadt, Großbrittanien) as did the French (Angleterre, Allemagne, Londres), whereupon he ate some humble pie. --Bermicourt (talk) 20:04, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention "Elisabeth II".91.34.203.197 (talk) 13:13, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

The fact that "everyone does it" does not mean that it's not cultural arrogance. Now we're saddled with the absurd situation that one Emperor Wilhelm is called "William" here, while a grandson that was named after him is referred to as "Wilhelm", and various institutions and buildings named after the same "William" have Wilhelm in their name (see the society, the church, and the bridge, to name three). Consistency, please. --Ilja.nieuwland (talk) 20:34, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

This WP article keeps the proper German name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II,_German_Emperor. Google translates Wilhelm (GER) to Wilhelm (ENG). LMSchmitt 12:53, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't really understand why this topic is brought up again and again. And I really don't understand why William II was renamed. Just look at the German Wikipedia. The names of British monarchs there are given in their German form. Conversely, it's only logical that the English Wikipedia uses the English names. Zwerg Nase (talk) 16:01, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

In my opinion, it's inconsistent and, thus, not so good. The split William I--Wilhelm II is explained in that Wikipedia use is mostly William I and Wilhelm II (a consequence of WW1 where English use wanted to stress "German Enemy"). In my opinion, one should leave people their proper name, even monarchs. Google does. Germans can read Charles I and don't need Karl I. Except when it's a German. Peace.! LMSchmitt 17:53, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Why can't people figure out if his name was "Wilhelm" or "William" ?

His name was "Wilhelm". Why is Wilhelm the First called "William I" and Wilhelm the Second called "Wilhelm II"? Inconsistent in choosing what to change the name of historical characters to... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.183.84.89 (talk) 17:13, 8 July 2013‎

During the Victorian Era, Prussia was (sort of) allied with the UK, through the Crown Prince's marriage to the Princess Royal - but after Wilhelm II's reign and WW1, "William" was changed back to "Wilhelm", to alienise and Germanize the Prussians. Franz Josef was previously known as "Francis Joseph". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.99.126.230 (talk) 06:12, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Franz Joseph I of Austria which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:30, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Why was the photo changed?

There doesn't appear to be any significant differences between the current and previous portrait used in the infobox, aside from one taken as German Emperor and the other as only King of Prussia. Anyone else prefer reverting to the last image? Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 19:56, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Numbering

Can it be proven that immediately when Wilhelm I ascended the Prussian (not German Empire) throne in 1861 he was referred to as Wilhelm I and not Friedrich Wilhelm V or Wilhelm V ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.249.44.172 (talk) 08:44, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Brazil's Southern Cross award

Under his titles, it says he was awarded the Brazil's Southern Cross Medal (Medalha do Cruzeiro Sul). I tried to find a source that explained what he did and how he received such a medal, but couldn't find one. On the award's page, it says one was given to his grandson, Wilhelm II, on 1878, not Wilhelm I. There is no mention of Wilhelm I on there. Was this a mistake? Did both Wilhelms receive the Southern Cross? Did his grandson receive one, and this title got added here by confusion? I'm willing to translate sources in portuguese, if anyone can find them.

Also, another discrepancy: on Wilhelm's II page, it says he was awarded one in 1878, and in the Order of The Southern Cross page, it says it was given on July of 1877. 2804:18:683F:E419:1:0:B5B5:7EDB (talk) 03:03, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

art

he is the o;der one 20012 204.101.49.85 (talk) 18:41, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Discussion regarding title of article

Should the article be entitled "William" or "Wilhelm"? Emiya1980 (talk) 06:59, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

@LMSchmitt, MDunn1937, Ilja.nieuwland, and Zwerg Nase: Based on your participation in the most recent prior discussion on how the article should be named, you are invited to a new discussion regarding the same. Should you feel so inclined, please share your thoughts below. Emiya1980 (talk) 00:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Векочел, Fdewaele, Favonian, Robertus Pius, Surtsicna, Rjensen, GoodDay, and Chewings72: In light of the significant extent of your contributions to the "William I, German Emperor" page (as well as relatively recent evidence of your continued interest in said article), you are invited to participate in a discussion regarding the title of the article. Should you feel so inclined, please share your thoughts below. Emiya1980 (talk) 06:58, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

@Bermicourt, Auntiruth55, Matthiasb, Frania Wisniewska, AJRT1, Pmanderson, Kotniski, John K, Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy, PatGallacher, Matthead, Cjc13, FactStraight, and Seven Letters: Based on your participation in a previous discussion on this subject, you are invited to participate in a new discussion regarding whether the article should be entitled "William I" or "Wilhelm I"?Emiya1980 (talk) 21:17, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

@Auntieruth55 and 7 Letters: See above. Emiya1980 (talk) 21:18, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

{{ping|Pmanderson|

It's a safe bet that renaming the article would be controversial. English vs. (in this case) German; old standard ("of Upper Slobbovia") vs. shortest possible form; the "correct" method of assessing the applicability of WP:COMMONNAME – just pick your fight. In any case, the question can only be answered (again) through WP:RM. WP:NCROY ain't what it used to be, and there have been countless, at times endless, discussions on the proper naming of crowned heads. Do I have an opinion? Probably, somewhere, but I have grown tired of those nitpicking palavers, where some zealot will chase the closer through the gates of Hell and ArbCom to get their way. Favonian (talk) 09:02, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I think Wilhelm I should remain William I as this is English Wikipedia. He should be treated the same as the Spanish monarchs, most of their names being translated to English. But, I do see the argument of common name. Wilhelm II wasn’t translated to English because of common name. But these types of discussion normally delve into nitpicking and a can quickly escalate, as said well above. Honestly, I’d rather just keep it how it is. I do appreciate your willingness to start this conversation though. Perhaps when more editors give their input and jf they’re in a civil manner I’ll maybe give more input. Kind regards, Robertus Pius (Talk • Contribs) 13:36, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Would you expect the German WP to translate the name of Charles? Honestly, his mother stands under Elisabeth II. but I don't think it's common anymore. So I am ambigious weth Wilhelm or William. I rather would get rid off German Emperor – that does not belong to an article's name Matthiasb (talk) 21:36, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Grandfather & grandson's pages should be named "William". Be consistent with the other Prussian monarch bio pages, which use the english version of their names. As for WP:NCROY? that's beyond repair. GoodDay (talk) 14:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Britain and Prussia were allies (of convenience, perhaps) until Wilhelm II.

So a change from the familiar to the (arguably correct) foreign form marks a significant historical transition.

When people ask why the style changes, that would be the right question. AJRT1 (talk) 18:26, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the page should be renamed "Wilhelm I" of Germany." During his rule, that's how he was known in Germany and to most of the world at the time. I have yet to come across any books where he was referred to as "William I". Emiya1980 (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

A bit late to the party, but as Emiya says, I have never seen this individual referred to by his anglicized name. This appears to be a textbook example of wikiality. Searching for "William I" Germany only returns 19th century works - I had to go to the 4th page of results to find a (self-published) book that was published within the last century. If we're weighing lower-case policies, NCROY is a convention, while COMMONNAME is capital-P policy, meaning it trumps NCROY. Parsecboy (talk) 18:49, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree, I'm here because during a ref fix I thought the article had been vandalized! Dave-okanagan (talk) 04:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)