Talk:Ramsay MacDonald

Miscellaneous

Does anyone really see Ramsay MacDonald as "the father of appeasement"? Surely this is nonsense. --Mr impossible 09:25, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

This article should probably say more about his disarmament plan, as it is more accurately interpreted as the last real hope for peace for Europe in the 1930s than 'appeasement.'

• The original Early career section contained a number of inaccuracies and needed filling out. There is a lot more that needs saying generally so intend to have more input. --Billreid 14:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I corrected to "Originally a socialist". i think that leading a government made up of a majority of Conservatives is a reasonable excuse fo rtaking away the label 'socialist' from someone ! Johncmullen1960 12:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

But that is not NPOV. Please cite proof of your statement.--Billreid 17:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have information about an attempt to blackmail Macdonald by a former mistress in the 1920s? (See page 98 of "The Red Book. The Membership List of the Right Club 1939" by Robin Saikia) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.26.110.215 (talk) 23:24, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm no expert, but re: Personal Life, the juxtaposition of "MacDonald was devastated by Margaret's death from blood poisoning in 1911, and had few significant personal relationships after that time, apart from with Ishbel" and then, in the following sentence, "following his wife's death, MacDonald commenced a relationship with Lady Margaret Sackville" would surely require some cleaning up. Rhoalpha —Preceding undated comment added 09:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC).

Following on from the above comment, from the Wikipedia page on the British pianist Harriet Cohen: "The British Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald is one of her more prominent relationships.[15] Harriet Cohen became close to MacDonald during the period when he was Prime Minister from 1929 to 1935, at a time of economic instability and depression which saw the rise of Nazism and Fascism in Europe. It was rumoured that MacDonald and Cohen became lovers. Their letters reflect a closeness; and she often visited him alone at 10 Downing Street and his home in Hampstead. Certainly many people did believe they were lovers and Cohen was often referred to as "the old man's darling". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.253.210 (talk) 12:28, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Active Politics

This sentence "In that same year, MacDonald was elected MP for Leicester along with 28 others" either needs re-writing, or we need some explanation of how 29 people became the Labour MP for Leicester. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.26.172 (talk) 19:46, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

That he led a government with a majority of Conservatives is a fact, not an opinion. IMHO it would be not NPOV to call him a socialist :=)

Johncmullen1960 08:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Expulsion from Labour party

I would be interested to know why he did not leave the Labour party of his own accord ... anyone know ? I think it would be worth mentioning. Johncmullen1960 08:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

He never ceased to regard himself as a socialist AFAIK and would have been happy for more Labour Ministers to stay on board in 1931. He thought he was acting in the national interest (rightly or wrongly) and then found himself trapped.

From what I can recall of David Marquand's toe stubber of a biography, MacDonald by c1936/1937 certainly still considered himself a socialist, believing there was something of a "National Labour" feeling in the country (he regarded his son Malcolm's victory in a by-election in early 1936 as a "victory for Labour, not 'Opposition Labour'") and as late as autumn 1937 at a party with old ILP colleagues he made a speech insisting he was still and always had been.

As for Labour ministers I've read conflicting accounts on this. There were certainly some who were asked and declined such as Herbert Morrison (although HM later rewrote history to claim he was against the National Government literally from the moment it was announced), Stafford Cripps (who declined as soon as he was back in the country and aware of the political situation) and Thomas Shaw (the War Office wasn't filled in the initial announcements of the National Government and some thought Shaw was being asked to stay on). However other accounts suggest he limited the appeal to those with little strong connection with Labour (mainly law officers, which were semi-non-partisan posts, military ministers and those whose main connection was to MacDonald not the movement) suggesting that from the outset he knew he was severing links from the outset. Certainly in the final days of the Labour government MacDonald believed that were it to resign (as seemed likely) he could neither get the party to support a new government making the budget cuts or credibly lead it in opposing cuts, indicating he knew one way or another his leadership of the party was up, though he had visions of supporting Baldwin "from below the [Labour] gangway" - i.e. the bench in the Commons were distinguished senior non-spokespersons sit. (Think where Dennis Skinner sits for an idea.) Timrollpickering 02:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know whether he resigned or was expelled. But I do know that he was not expelled by any collection of individual party members, the statement that "Many leading Labour Party activists denounced MacDonald and expelled him from the Party" is clearly wrong.Royalcourtier (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 05:24, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

It's over 20 years since I read the David Marquand biography (and another time ten years before that) and I don't have a copy to hand. However, according to the ODNB he and all other supporters of the National Government were expelled by the Labour National Executive, apparently around September 1931 (it doesn't give the exact date). This was the time when the pound had been devalued and the decision had been taken for the National Government to fight an election (MacDonald was actually reluctant but was under Tory pressure), contrary to the original intention in both cases.Paulturtle (talk) 01:26, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Zinoviev letter

How has this article been so extensively written without any link to the Zinoviev Letter? I know that certain Wikipedians are allergic to anything that smells even faintly of conspiracy but this omission is taking the ...! If no-one objects, I'm going to write a little section next week.Garrick92 17:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

• Well here's a bit about it over to you --Bill Reid | Talk 21:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:MacDonald Poster.jpg

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BetacommandBot 04:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Death?

Died: 9 November 1937 on the liner Reina del Pacifico on holiday during the crossing of the Atlantic.

Could not see mention of this in the main text...

Ref: http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page136.asp

Royzee 19:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Error

How can he be proceeded and succeeded by the same person, i.e. Stanley Baldwin. Forgive me if I am mistake, but I believe this to be an error? 78.86.166.102 (talk) 02:49, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

He had more than one period in office, alternating with Baldwin. No error. Timrollpickering (talk) 09:18, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Date of Election

There was no General Election on 21st January 1924. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.22.155 (talk) 11:04, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

This date appeared in the text under the sub-heading "First government (1924)". I have altered it so that it reads correctly.86.145.22.155 (talk) 11:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

New file File:(James) Ramsay MacDonald by Solomon Joseph Solomon.jpg

Recently the file File:(James) Ramsay MacDonald by Solomon Joseph Solomon.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 17:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Formation of the National Government

This section contains the following passage:

"Great anger in the labour movement greeted MacDonald's move. Mass riots by unemployed people took place in protest in Glasgow and Manchester. Many in the Labour Party viewed this as a cynical move by MacDonald to rescue his career, and accused him of 'betrayal'. MacDonald, however, argued that the sacrifice was for the common good."

What does "this" refer to - MacDonald's move or the mass riots? I guess the second sentence has been interpolated. The passage would be better as:

"Great anger greeted MacDonald's move. Many in the Labour Party viewed it as a cynical move by MacDonald to rescue his career, accusing him of betrayal. In response to the proposed reductions in public expenditure, the National Unemployed Workers' Movement led protest riots in Manchester and Glasgow and a strike by sailors, the Invergordon Mutiny, took place. MacDonald, however, argued that the sacrifice was for the common good."

If there are no objections, I will put it in. Marshall46 (talk) 12:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

References

Foreign policy

There is no mention of foreign policy. Not even the mandates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.146.10 (talk) 14:37, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

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Anglo-German Naval Agreement

Sock of banned editor HarveryCarter. BMK (talk) 03:22, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Macdonald's government was responsible for the agreement, as he had only been out of office for eleven days when it was signed. (Sdjkl1 (talk) 13:41, 30 November 2015 (UTC)) SOurce please. BMK (talk) 18:50, 30 November 2015 (UTC) Negotiations began at the beginning of 1935. MacDonald is most remembered for begining the appeasement of Germany that was continued by Baldwin. (Sdjkl1 (talk) 19:35, 30 November 2015 (UTC)) Source, please. Information on Wikipedia is based on verifiable information, sourced by citations from reliable sources, not by repetition of claims on the talk page, or edit-warring in the article - so please provide sources for this information. BMK (talk) 00:00, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

First use of ‘Labour Party’

In 1892, MacDonald impressed the local [Dover] Association and was adopted as its candidate, announcing that his candidature would be under a Labour Party banner. He denied that the Labour Party was a wing of the Liberal Party...

(In 1900) The ILP was more rigorously socialist than the once and future Labour Party...

All of this suggests that there was an official entity called the ‘Labour Party’ at this time. Are you sure he wasn’t referring to the ILP? Valetude (talk) 23:18, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Labour Party

How come when he was the first Labour Prime Minister, the article says that the government was dominated by the Conservatives?Vorbee (talk) 06:44, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

His first government, January to November 1924, was a Labour government, as was his government from 1929-1931. In 1931 he then formed a National Government which came to be dominated by the Tories. See First MacDonald ministry, Second MacDonald ministry, and National Government (1931) respectively. DuncanHill (talk) 12:23, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

As the article says "... leading minority Labour governments in 1924 and in 1929–31. He headed a National Government from 1931 to 1935, dominated by the Conservative Party and supported by only a few Labour members." which I think is clear enough. DuncanHill (talk) 12:25, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Reference problems - Morgan 1987

"Harv error: CITEREFMorgan1987 has multiple targets (2×)." The two targets are Austen Morgan's "J. Ramsay MacDonald" and Ken Morgan's " Labour People: Leaders and Lieutenants Hardy to Kinnock ". DuncanHill (talk) 05:30, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

This is still outstanding ten months later. DuncanHill (talk) 11:35, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Another reference problem - Marquand

We have refs like "Marquand, p. 24" but two works by Marquand are listed. Now to those already familiar with the works it may be obvious that those with page numbers are to the Jonathan Cape book and not the ODNB article, but it is unfair on our readers to expect this level of knowledge of the sources. DuncanHill (talk) 05:42, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Ref problems - newspapers

There are some refs to newspapers without page numbers or article titles. DuncanHill (talk) 05:47, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

suggestion that Zinoviev letter had little effect

Article asserts that

"In the event the Zinoviev letter had little effect, as the Labour vote actually increased. It was the collapse of the Liberal Party that led to the Conservative landslide."

This to me seems like conjecture, although perfectly possible that letter has no effect, the fact that the liberal vote collapsed does not prove this. Perfectly possible that without the letter more of the previously liberal voters would have voted for labour. Coopsinio (talk) 10:27, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Versailles Conference

MacDonald denounced the Treaty of Versailles: "We are beholding an act of madness unparalleled in history".

What aspect of the Treaty did he object to?

Valetude (talk) 19:20, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Neoliberal apologist bullshit

The section on MacDonald's "revised" legacy is complete and utter horseshit. An unencyclopaedic disgrace. A handful of hard-right, pro-Blair, pro-Clinton scholars are cited as experts, speaking in favour of an economic "reality" which has subsequently collapsed. Get better, more diverse and more balanced sources or I'm blanking it.

DublinDilettante (talk) 22:37, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

If you have reliable sources then please use them to improve the article. Simply blanking cited material because it offends your political sensibilities will not be viewed favourably. DuncanHill (talk) 23:37, 7 November 2022 (UTC)