Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Johannesburg's Mall Culture

Johannesburg's Mall Culture was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was MERGE AND DELETE. 5 votes to merge/delete, 4 votes to delete, 1 vote to keep. Beyond the simple majority in favor of M&D, this divides into 6 votes for keeping (at least some of) the content against 4 to delete entirely, but 9 votes against having it exist as an independent article against 1 to keep in its current state. The objective content from the article appears to have already been merged into Johannesburg, and so the article will accordingly be deleted. Postdlf 01:16, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Johannesburg's Mall Culture

I can't see the point of this article. The city has some malls and people like to go shopping. Sounds like most cities in the western world. --LeeHunter 20:46, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

At least rename it Johannesburg's mall culture because it is not a proper name. With one or two pictures illustrating what is being said, why not? <KF> 21:18, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

Hello Kurt and Lee. I'm placing this here because I am a bit of a "newbie" and I obviously haven't created a login account that allows me to email you directly. I take it you are both official editors/contributors to Wikipedia, so I'll try not to mess with you too much. Kurt, I appreciate your kindness and the GENTLE manner in which you have tried to guide me to a better understanding of how Wikipedia works. Lee, dear, I suggest you re-read the article on not biting the newcomer. Johannesburg is NOT a western city (as people in North America are so arrogantly fond of pointing out), and you'd have to live here to understand the nature of the Jo'burg "mall crawl." Ask any local resident. I'd like to hazard a guess that you've never been to Johannesburg. Um, what was that I was saying on my user page about some ignorant people in the Northern Hemisphere who peer down their academic noses across the shamefully-contrived Brandt Line, and look with disdain upon their neighbours in the south who have Christmas in summer? Oh well, at least you don't think we have lions roaming in the streets (I trust), or that Cairo is a suburb of Johannesburg. Hope this doesn't get me expelled. Rob Thomas 22:15, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Delete. The tip-off (other than the POV-ish language) is that this mall phenomenon is described as "American", thus derivative. And Rob, nobody's bitten you (yet)! At most, a nibble. — Bill 23:29, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Merge with Johannesburg & delete. Can preserve the info, but it doesn't merit an article of its own. P. Riis 23:31, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

concur with P. Riis Merge with Johannesburg & delete. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:33, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

Delete: A facet of a local culture that is, itself, quicksilver. It is impossible to speak authoritatively about such a thing as a "mall culture" anywhere without some serious Sociology credits, and those folks would be wary of making huge generalizations. What this is is a POV observation and therefore original research. Geogre 00:27, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Merge any valid info with Johannesburg. Definitely doesn't deserve its own article. Nadavspi 00:42, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Delete. Original research. --Improv 02:38, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Merge the non-original research (ie facts) carefully into Johannesburg —siro χ o 03:51, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
Delete. I've taken a stab at merging, putting the information into Johannesburg#Economy and changing the wording of the vague cross-reference under Johannesburg#Tourism. This leaves out the "culture" aspect, that some people have more fun going to the mall than doing something else. I don't think that's notable. There are people like that in every city that has shopping malls, Western or not. Absent some indication that Johannesburg is markedly unusual in this respect, there's no reason to mention it. But, Rob, please do get us a photo or two of the lions in the streets. :) JamesMLane 06:08, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

YAY! AT LAST! Finally I get the info left on the Johannesburg page. The only reason why I made it a separate article in the first place is because some idiot kept on deleting it off the Jo'burg page. Thank you James Lane and others. James, I'll see if I can make a plan with my new Wikipedia "chom" in Douglasdale, Jerome, for a pic or two of his pet lion, Simba, who recently ate the neighbour's goldfish. Anyway, I can live with the info merged effectively. Thanks to Bill Thayer for the "nibble" comment - it makes it all a bit lighter. Also, thanks to Bill for pointing out that the mall "culture" thing is derivative, thus contradicting all the comments about it being original research. Now, about POV - if you wanted to get really heavy, you could argue that saying someone's work is their point of view IS in itself a point of view - isn't everybody biased anyway? What I cannot understand is how someone who was born in Denmark and emigrated to New York is now suddenly qualified to write about Johannesburg or South Africa. I wouldn't dream of writing an article, or contributing to one, where I do not know anything about the subject. How am I suddenly qualified to write about New York when I've only ever been to the city once? And it was VERY different to the New York I perceived on Law & Order. I write about Jonhannesburg and South Africa because I was born here, live here, studied here, and mingle with the people here. So call it qualitative research. Johannesburg's love affair with the shopping mall, like Los Angeles' love affair with the freeway, is a well-documented fact: the official Johannesburg website (www.joburg.gov.za); several newspaper articles (The Star and the Sunday Times); books (From Jo'burg to Jozi - Stories about Africa's infamous city); and other sources (Financial Mail, Finance Week). To get a truly accurate essence of Johannesburg, one should record its shopping malls - which is all I was trying to do. It is a fact that Johannesburg, being devoid of beaches and mountains (something which people from Cape Town and Durban LOVE to throw in our faces), makes use of shopping as a pastime - and I would dare say MORE than other cities. It is also a fact, as stated, that people from neighbouring countries FLOCK to Johannesburg in droves to make use of its shopping facilities, so much so that it adds, as I wrote, some $1.5 billion to retail spend in Johannesburg annually. Well over 40% of the 12 million people who pass through Johannesburg International Airport annually come from Africa - and they come to Johannesburg to conduct business and go shopping. So when dumb people say stupid things about South Africa, you're darn right it gets my blood boiling. I challenge any person on earth to prove to me that they are different. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. The fact that we can add to it is marvellous, to improve its accuracy. I am MORTIFIED by the trash "experts" dish up in the name of education. I recently purchased a 2004 edition of an electronic atlas/encyclopaedia produced by everybody's FAVOURITE sofware supplier. When I bought the 2001 edition, they still had Johannesburg International Airport's name listed as Jan Smuts - EIGHT YEARS after it had changed. The maps of Johannesburg were more than 30 years out of date, and did not have freeways and other urban areas listed that had been built for more than 20 years. So I emailed them and told them to catch a wake-up. When I bought the 2004 version (for over $100), the ONLY thing they had changed was the name of the airport. The maps were exactly the same. The photographs of the city were more than 20 years old. That would be akin to showing a pic of the New York skyline circa 2004 with the World Trade Center still standing. Could you imagine the hue and outcry! The population of Johannesburg was listed as 712,000. I didn't know whether to laugh or to cry. Obviously, I will never buy their product again. I'm sure everybody at Wikipedia wants it to maintain its levels of credibility (no emotional manipulation there, hey?). So, put that in your POV pipe and smoke it. Thanks for a great asset like Wikipedia. The world is a richer (and more accurate) place for its existence, and I think I'm becoming an addict. Rob Thomas 10:04, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Keep -- Cabalamat 22:05, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.