Talk:Triskaidekaphobia

Opening paragraph

The opening paragraph makes no sense at all. Who exactly are the "ancient mesomorphs" and how do we know how they counted? If whoever wrote this meant bob Mesopotamians (Sumerian culture, presumably), what does that have to do with how ancient Anglos counted? I'm going to delete this and put something generic if no one disagrees. Shawnb (talk) 13:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

2023

Ok 76.18.184.251 (talk) 12:49, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

F-13

The F-13 aircraft designation was not skipped due to triskaidekaphobia. It was skipped because the F-13 had already been used as a temporary designation for a reconniasance version of the WW2-era B-29 Superfortress

NS Norfolk

I believe the piers at Naval Station Norfolk, Virginia number from 12 straight to 14 with no 13.A clock has only 12 numbers!

Airports

I was in the Louisville International Airport a couple of months ago, and I noticed that, at least in the A terminal (but presumably in the other ones as well) there was no gate 13. It went straight from A12 to A14. Is this common in airports, or is Louisville a fluke? -Branddobbe 08:32, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

It seems to be somewhat common. For another example, see Birmingham International Airport also at Memphis International Airport- User: BIG BROTHER

Irrational

The opening sentence calls Triskaidekaphobia irrational. Isn't that sort of POV? - User:BIG BROTHER

You're right actually. The confusion is that a phobia is classically defined as an irrational and debilitating fear of x. But this I got from Phobia#Non-clinical uses of the term: "unlike clinical phobias, which are usually qualified with the word "irrational", phobias of attitude usually have roots in social relations." RMoloney (talk) 14:06, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

The whole POV thing is there to protect people. However, if people are willing to be so irrational, then they are open to ridicule. 13 is a number. It isn't a serial killer. It isn't a hungry tiger. It isn't a mother-in-law. Hell, it isn't even a spider. I am more afraid of getting a paper-cut than encountering the number 13. I'd happily be the 13th person to order 13 bottles of wine in the 13th room of the 13th floor of the 13th building of the 13th street on Friday the 13th.

Inconsistency?

How can triskaidekaphobia 'probably only have originated in medievil times' if the lack of a 13 in the Code of Hammurabi seems to indicate a superstition long before the Christian era?

Biblical 13

I think this addition should be properly sourced, or else deleted:

The number 13 also retains biblical meanings. At the Last Supper, there were 13 people present. Additionally, the Christians disliked the pagans, who regarded the number 13 as a "sacred" number.

The traditional explanation for triskaidekaphobia that I first heard was the 12 apostles + Jesus in the Last Supper, but that's just a tradition. And I like to know which pagans regarded 13 as a sacred number, and why (or what does "sacred" mean, especially since it's in quotes). --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 17:48, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

    I don't agree with that.  According to Christianity, the Last Supper happened
    before fictional good (the death and ressurrection of Christ; forgiveness
    administered to all).  So associating 13 with something where the event is not 
    viewed as negative doesn't work friend.  - Aaron M. Eden

Regardless, this shouldn't be referenced as Jewish tradition seeing as they don't have any 'traditions' regarding Christ.TheNobleDuke

As a student of the Bible the number 13 appears no where in the Bible in a literal or metaphorical meaning. The canonical Bible (not the apocrypha books) only has literal and metaphorical meanings for these numbers: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, 24, 40, 70, 77, 666, 1000, 1260, 1600, 2520, 7000, and 144000 - Gorba (talk) 19:35, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

@Gorba: Do you have a source for any of that? Sundayclose (talk) 22:44, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Loki and Satan as 13th?

Triskaidekaphobia may have also affected the Vikings - it is believed that Loki in the Norse pantheon was the 13th god. This was later Christianized into saying that Satan was the 13th angel.

Where did this actually come about? The 13th God reference is incorrect, the mythology was that he was the 13th unwanted guest to a party for Balder, and managed to cause his death. What I am more concerned about is where Satan supposedly was the 13th Angel. No mention is made of it in the correspdoning Satan Wiki entry. --Mirell 15:16, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

We're sourcing Oberon Zell-Ravenheart for Loki showing up at Balder's Birthday Bash. Even if that is actual Nordic lore, are we sure that's a credible source? He does claim to be a wizard, and he may have created unicorns, but I don't think he ever claimed to be an authority on Norse mythology. 68.230.254.228 (talk) 00:31, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Japanese tetraphobia

Unless there's a study proving it, I'm sure this is not quite correct. The Chinese pronunciation, for the words "die" and "four" are similar (si), and in extension the Japanese and Korean pronunciation of the same words derived from Chinese. The Japanese verb "to die" is shinu; the numeral four is either shi or yon. There are a bazillion words in Japanese that include shi and have good connotations, and there are a bazillion words where shi means something other than either "four" or "die". I bet Chinese si has a lot of meanings too. "Four sounds like die" is not a serious explanation. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 12:48, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

While I'm definitely not terribly familiar with Chinese, I do know of their tonal system, and from investigating on a Chinese-English Dictionary employing Pinyin, I noted "four" was "sì", whereas anything discussing "death" seemed to be composed of the morpheme "sǐ". Which, in Chinese, just that much tonal difference is enough to render it an entirely different word altogether.

Also, it should be noted, that this was using Mandarin. Just taking into account the variety of dialects (languages) for Chinese, it can't very well be stated that Chinese as a whole has this certain phobia.--Mirell 15:21, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

"Four" and "death" in all dialects of Chinese are the same. [Unsigned user]

In Japanese, the verb "shinu" does mean to die. This is made up of a kanji character meaning death and pronounced "shi" and a hiragana character which provides the verb ending and is modified in the various forms of the verb. The existing phrasing is, in my opinion, correct. The verb "to die" and the number 4 may not be homonyms but the core character meaning death and one pronunciation of 4 are homonyms. The explanation given in this article coincides exactly with the explanation given for Japanese Tetraphobia by all the Japanese people I have ever asked.Buyo 08:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

As a Chinese myself growing up and living in Hong Kong, perhaps I can explain a bit about tetraphobia in Chinese. The phobia definitely traces it back to the language - in Mandarin Chinese 'four' is si4 and 'die/death' is si3, which have just a slight difference in tone (the number notates the tone); I am not familiar with each and every dialects in China but at least in Cantonese 'four' is sei3 and 'die/death' is sei2 (which are, you can see, very close in pronunciation too). There are a lot of apartment blocks in HK which doesn't have the 4th or 14th floor ;in fact, '14' (sup6 sei3) in Cantonese is similiar to the words 'must die' (sut6 sei2). In the same virtue, since the traditional way of saying the word 'tongue' (sit3) in Cantonese is similar to 'losing money' (sit6), therefore we call it lei6 among Cantonese-speaking people since it has the same pronunciation as the word 'making profit'. On the other hand, Chinese like the number 'eight' (ba1/bat3), which in both Mandarin and Cantonese pronunces very close to 'having a fortune' (fa1/fat3)sctonyling 08:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Formula-1

Who were these 2 drivers who died under number 13? I couldn't find this information anywhere else.--Bubuka 11:56, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

According to [1], there were three motorsport deaths in the 1920s involving car 13: Jean Matthys & Paul Torchy (1925) and Giulio Masetti (1926). This led most motorsport bodies, including F1 when it came into existence, to not issue number 13, although in the case of F1 (and probably others) the driver is free to request it. 86.139.19.32 21:58, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

When I become an F1 driver I'm going to request 13.--roddie digital (talk) 19:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Arnold Schoenberg

Okay, it's understandable that this dude was afraid of turning 76, due to the digits adding up to 13. But what about other numbers? 49, 58, 67, then after 76 comes 85, and 94. Heck, even 31 is just the number 13 in disguise.

The whole example about Schoenberg seems a bit too much of an urban myth. The wikipedia article states nothing about the coincidence of his time of death. Can we get a source for this information or get it revised?

Mário Zagallo

Opposed to what was mentioned, Mário Zagallo actually believes 13 is a number that brings good luck, not quite fitting into the definition of triskaidekaphobia. His superstition is also confirmed on his wikipedia page. 201.37.195.38 03:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Religious overtones not appropriate

Anybody else find several parts of this article very innappropriate? Read this:

The first born son of Pharaoh died when the angel of death visited the land of Egypt. To the Egyptians, Pharaoh was God on earth, and hence to show him to not be god was necessary. The death of the "son of the Egyptian God "Pharaoh" is interesting in that it was through the sacrifice of a son, an innocent son, that God's people were freed.

So, since the Jewish day begins and ends with sundown, the passover took place on the 14th of Nisan. But according to the reckoning of the Egyptian (read GENTILE) calendar, it was Friday night on the 13th of the month. Friday the 13th was the day of deliverance for the people of Israel from the Egyptian (gentile) perspective. And so it was also a foreshadowing of the deliverance of all God's people, for it was by death of the son of the king (Christ being the Son of God) that the people were freed from their bondage to sin and eternal death.

Because this plague took place on the evening of the 13th (it being a Friday as the Jewish Sabbath takes place on Saturday)is why Fridays that fall on the 13th day of the month acquired the superstition that it was a bad day and it is also why the number 13 has a phobia attached to it. It is fascinating to what extent Satan will go to attach fear and misunderstanding to anything and everything so as to direct people away from God's truth.

Especially look at the last sentence. This is totally innappropriate for this article; it's fine mentioning possible sources for the Friday 13th thing, but that sentence `It is fascinating to what extent Satan will go to attach fear and misunderstanding to anything and everything so as to direct people away from God's truth' is just plain preaching and has no right to be in this article. I haven't deleted it because I'm too new to this site to know what is the correct method but I'm sure others agree and can do something about it.

According to the article:

Other traditions believe Friday the 13th comes from the final plague which God used to bring Egypt to its knees and demonstrate his deity to them and to accomplish the release of his people Israel. Each of the 10 plagues was a direct revelation/attack on the Gods of Egypt. The River Nile was worshipped as a God (it was the life force of Egypt because it irrigated the delta region and provided food) hence it was the 1st "god" that God dealt with. Each of the next plagues also brought down one by one, one of the gods of the Egyptian people (it was a demonstration of YHWH's true deity as opposed to the false deity of the Egyptian gods), and finally with the 10th plague, God brought down Pharaoh.

The first born son of Pharaoh died when the angel of death visited the land of Egypt. To the Egyptians, Pharaoh was God on earth, and hence to show him to not be god was necessary. The death of the "son of the Egyptian God "Pharaoh" is interesting in that it was through the sacrifice of a son, an innocent son, that God's people were freed.

So, since the Jewish day begins and ends with sundown, the passover took place on the 14th of Nisan.

The last sentence reads like a conclusion, but I'm not sure I follow the logic. It seems to say, "God sent 10 plagues, the last one being the death of Pharaoh's son on Passover. Because of this, and because the Jewish day begins and ends with sundown, Passover must have been on the 14th of Nisan." Does it say somewhere in the Bible that the first plague occurred on the 4th day of Nisan, and that each plague lasted for exactly a day? What is the connection between the plagues and the Passover?

Don't get me wrong; I think this is all fascinating. But if the point is that Passover occurred on Friday the 13th, then I recommend eliminating the first two paragraphs, and rewriting the third to say, "According to [citation], the Passover took place on the 14th day of Nisan, which would have been Friday the 13th according to the Egyptian calendar. On this day the Angel of the Lord killed the firstborn sons of everyone in Egypt whose doorways were not marked with the blood of the Passover lamb. Therefore the Egyptians viewed Friday the 13th as extremely unlucky."

I agree with the above, and I'm pleased someone removed what did sound completely inappropriate. To the poster above, you may wish to sign your comments in future by concluding them with four tildes '~ ~ ~ ~', but without the spaces or the quotes, which will tag on your name and a date. I've also taken the liberty of further removing unnecessarily preachy text, in the form of a large segment dealing with the superstition of Friday 13th as it relates to Bible stories about the plagues of Egypt. I've done this because a) most of that text dealt with Friday 13th - not 13 - and there's already an article for that; and b) most of the text was telling the story of the plagues from the POV of a believer. - Adaru 16:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

---

I do not know if this would be applicable to this article but USAToday has an article concerning hotels with and without 13th floors...[2]--Kcmo64 18:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Long list of junk

The article has a long list of non-notable instances of the number 13, and the reality is that by adding digits together in specific ways you can get 13 out of pretty much everything. Titanium Dragon 11:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes~! RANDOM occurrences do not belong here. The list is literally of infinite size. What's important are cultural instances which show fear, superstition, etc. --Dylanfly 16:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

strays from the topic how?

I don't see how the section on origins strays from the topic. I see an uncited statement, but that's a different problem. Knodeltheory 18:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

MERGE unlucky aspects of 13 here

The WP page for Thirteen (number) has a section on triskaidekaphobia and it should appear here. There's a lot of redundancy. --Dylanfly 16:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

False Apollo Info

The Apollo info here is wrong. Apollo 13 was launched on April 11 at 19:13. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.62.67.86 (talk) 23:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything about Apollo 13 here but it was planned that it would the Moon's orbit on April 13 and it lifted off at 13:13 in Houston where Mission Control is.Cedargang (talk) 23:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Number 4 in Korea

I cannot speak directly for China and Japan, but the reason 4 is considered an inauspicious number in Korea is because the Korean word for 4 - sa/사 (which derives from the hanja)- is a homonym for 'death'. Buildings in Korea don't skip the fourth floor as is suggested in the article, they simply go in this order: 1, 2, 3, F, 5... --Bentonia School 09:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Exception

The Las Vegas Hilton is one of the only hotels in the Western Hemisphere with a 13th floor.

Calling it an exception "in the western hemisphere" might be too much. I live in the western hemisphere and there is no fear of 13th floors here, and I doubt local hotels skip 13th floors - this breaks the supposed rule and makes Las Vegas Hilton pointless as an exception.

Perhaps it should say North America, or even US + Canada (I don't know if Mexico has this tradition too).

– Roma_emu ^talk 15:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

4's for hospitals

What is this sentence supposed to mean: "In Taiwan, tetraphobia is so common that there are no 4's or x4's for hospitals." Does it mean there are no 4th floors in hospitals, or 4's in their telephone numbers, or 4's in what? (Jeffreyjoh (talk) 03:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC))

no digit 4 in floor number, room number, contact number, address, etc. etc. it means what it says, ie. no digit 4 anywhere for hospitals. 114.249.200.220 (talk) 13:51, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Please don't add Apollo 13 as an "example" of triskaidekaphobia

Apollo 13 was (arguably) an example of coincidences surrounding the number 13, but it is not an example of triskaidekaphobia, which is the fear of the number 13. --Otterfan (talk) 23:40, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, it probably validated some people's triskaidekaphobia... AnonMoos (talk) 18:16, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Paraskevi... thingy

I know from following the link that both alternative spellings exist, but they should not both be used in the same article. 91.107.154.123 (talk) 00:37, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

POGO

Have we forgotten the panic that always overcame Churchy LaFemme, Pogo's turtle friend, when Friday the thirteenth arived. He was however sometimes relieved by his narrow escape when the thirteenth came on Thursday or Saturday. Oldbill21 (talk) 05:37, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

mitsotakis

in greece it's largely believed that Konstantinos Mitsotakis brings bad luck and it's even combined with 13 or something...hahaha should we add it?

Freemasonry

Is this stuff notable? This rather obscure historian of Freemasonry doesn't seem so, and any mention of Freemasonry and the Knights Templar by an obscure historian (who worked almost entirely on this single subject) causes me to activate my Dan-Brown-fake-history reflex. I'm tempted to just remove the paragraph altogether. Thoughts?--Inonit (talk) 11:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I can understand your feelings, given the lack of decent citation. However, the explanation about the Knights Templar is quite pervasive, even if generally dismissed by folklorists. I think it shows up in The Da Vinci Code, for example. I haven't checked, but you shouldn't have any trouble finding it on sites like The Straight Dope or Snopes. Better references would be a good addition to the article. -Verdatum (talk) 17:35, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Delta Airlines

Most of the Canadair Regional Jets (CRJ) in the Delta Connection fleet do not include a row 13. Simply row 12 then row 14. IAMChaikah (talk) 07:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Dubious section about Vikings

Triskaidekaphobia may have also affected the Vikings—it is believed that Loki in the Norse pantheon was the 13th god.[citation needed] More specifically, Loki was believed to have engineered the murder of Balder, and was the 13th guest to arrive at the funeral. This is perhaps related to the superstition that if thirteen people gather, one of them will die in the following year. Another Norse tradition involves the myth of Norna-Gest: when the uninvited norns showed up at his birthday celebration—thus increasing the number of guests from ten to thirteen—the norns cursed the infant by magically binding his lifespan to that of a mystic candle they presented to him.

I have the following reservations about the above text:

1. I have never seen any other source claiming that Vikings had any problems with any numbers.
2. I have never seen any other source claiming that Loki was a 13th god (which I highly doubt anyone would seriously claim, since he was a different species from the other residents of Valhalla).
3. The idea that Loki had "engineerd" the murder of Balder is in the myths—i.e. it is "mythical fact". It is not "believed".
4. The entire section does not quote a single source.

The section seems to me to be a repetition of the christianification of Norse mythology that took place after Scandinavians became Christian rather than based on actually reliable source as to how Vikings lived or believed.

FrederikHertzum (talk) 17:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

---

The bit about Loki being the 13th god may or may not be historically accurate, but it was included in a fairly large number of books published throughout the 20th century, so it definitely should be included in this article (whether to endorse it or debunk it)... AnonMoos (talk) 01:07, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Sumerians revisited

Many years ago I seem to remember an account of the Sumerian/Babylonia "war in heaven" where "Tiamat and eleven monsters" fought against Marduk who was blessed by 12 gods with powers to defeat her. Does this ring a bell with anyone? GESICC (talk) 09:26, 12 September 2010 (UTC)GESICC

Greek

Dekatria seems to be modern Greek only, while the ancient Greek forms as included in the Shorter Liddell and Scott were treiskaideka and triskaideka. AnonMoos (talk) 15:11, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

And only triskaideka occurs in derived words and compounds... AnonMoos (talk) 21:42, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

The Final External Link

The final external link - "What is Triskaidekaphobia?" - links to a web-page that attempted to upload malicious software onto my computer. The page is also non-functional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.32.162.122 (talk) 02:20, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Tarot deck?

I'd always been told that part of the reason for the fear of the number 13 came from the fact that the 13th major arcanna in a tarot deck is Death. In this respect, it would have much in common with Chinese tetraphobia, since the number 4 is also associated with death. I don't have any source, nor do I have the first clue how you'd look that sort of thing up, but the Death card IS number 13 in most standard tarot decks, so it's likely related even if it's not the origin of the superstition. Lurlock (talk) 21:46, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Colgate

Why the mentioning of "Colgate"? What is it? 83.77.253.211 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:48, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Sizdah Bedar

Removed this claim:

Ancient Persians believed the twelve constellations in the Zodiac controlled the months of the year, and each ruled the earth for a thousand years, at the end of which the sky and earth collapsed in chaos. Therefore, the number is identified with chaos and the reason Persians leave their houses to avoid bad luck on the thirteenth day of the Persian Calendar, a tradition called Sizdah Bedar.

As the page on Sizdah Bedar specifically states this is not the case, that the holiday has nothing to do with any negative beliefs about 13. 76.111.27.52 (talk) 08:03, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Thirteen as a lucky number

The section in this article stating that in some cultures, thirteen is seen as a lucky number is interesting. Vorbee (talk) 08:14, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Lunisolar Intercalation

There is ancient evidence in Asia and elsewhere eg Egypt) that intercalation is treated with caution and concern, and can cause confusion when not using an authorised calendar or almanac. cf. Intercalary month, Babylonian astronomy). 20040302 (talk) 09:47, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Thirteenth floor into Triskaidekaphobia

I don't think this topic is notable enough to warrant its own article. Broader discussion about methods for skipping "13" are better in Triskaidekaphobia rather than here. Awesome Aasim 02:05, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 20:45, 19 October 2024 (UTC)