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An inherent contradiction?

The lead of the article sets out an extremely detailed and very broad definition of fascism, selecting references that support the authors' arguments. Then the next section admits that there is no agreed definition of fascism, and that authoritative (at least, referenced) views of what it is differ to the extent that no broadly agreed definition is possible.

I shall make the radical suggestion that there is no generic or accepted definition of fascism, nor can there be in terms of how the word has entered general usage. The possible exception is the Italian regime of 1922-1943 led by Benito Mussolini which (as I understand it) styled itself Fascism. Other than that, I suggest that all definitions of fascism are essentially descriptions of political and economic systems to which the authors of those definitions are opposed, i.e. expressions of authorial opinion. This is not the purpose of WP.

I do not suggest that all is lost. Authoritarian political systems, for example, can be defined in ways that meet broad agreement, even if individuals disagree whether particular systems are or are not authoritarian. Democracy, Autarky and other politico-economic manifestations can be defined similarly. Fascism can't.

This can be regarded as a plea for humility from WP, i.e. an acceptance that it cannot be the arbiter of a definition that can never achieve more than partisan acceptance. A true definition, I suggest, would be 'a term of abuse for a variety of politico-economic systems, used by parties opposed to them.' You could then go on to include examples. Italian (1922-1943) Fascism would be a separate topic, since there is no causal or other connection. Chrismorey (talk) 13:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would take this more seriously if the next section had not been Etomolgy, which does not discuss anything about no agreed definition. Slatersteven (talk) 13:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mussolini's government identified fascist movements in 39 countries and invited them to a fascist international, at which 13 attended. Certainly people self-identified as fascist beyond Italy. Mussolini had laid out the central tenets of fascism in The Doctrine of Fascism. Americans abuse the term socialist also, that does not mean it is meaningless. TFD (talk) 13:58, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How is Fascism "opposed to … anarchism"?

Wikipedia literally has an entire article dedicated to National Anarchism, known in popular culture as Anarcho-Fascism, yet it manages to claim that Fascism is "opposed to … anarchism". MicholIsUsed (talk) 13:42, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anarcho-Fascism is not considered a form of anarchism. TFD (talk) 13:54, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome to Meinong's jungle. Generalrelative (talk) 15:38, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not far-right nor far-left

Fascism couldn't be considered far left or far right, as it's actually very close to the centre of economical spectre. Some sources indeed deem F. as a far-right ideology, but lacks of any valid argumentation. We just better avoid highlighting it's economical stance in the lede. Chronophobos (talk) 19:19, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Read FAQ. Also this is not a forum. YBSOne (talk) 19:22, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree whole heartedly. I actually once edited it to remove the line about right wing. This is a clearly inaccurate, biased line that should be removed. CAVincent readded it when I removed it. His user page is one sentence, "I live in Seattle, Washington." I think that says all you need to know about CAVincent & where his politics are.Johnny Spasm (talk) 09:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"his politics" nor his user page have nothing to do about it. Neither does your opinion not based in sources. You should also read FAQ before editing such contentious topic. YBSOne (talk) 10:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ultra-conservativism in National Socialism

The lede of this article says that Fascism is a 'far-right' ideology. The page soon says that Adolf Hitler is a Fascist. The lede of the far-right politics page says that the 'far-right' tends to be 'radically conservative'. The lede of ultraconservativism says that 'ultraconservativism' refers to 'extreme conservativism' and finnaly the lede of conservativism says it 'seeks to promote and preserve traditional institutions, customs, and values.' We can piece this all together to say that, according to Wikipedia, Adolf Hitler (arguably the creator of National Socialism) seeks to 'preserve traditional institutions, customs and values', but since he is said to be an 'ultraconservative', he wants to basically not change anything of traditional institutions, customs or values.

This is directly contradicted not only by evidence of most Nazi-period historians, but also by Wikipedia itself, which says numerous times that Hitler and the National Socialists desired expansion into Eastern Europe in order to conquer living space (Lebensraum) for the survival of the 'Aryan race'; a 'New Order', which rejects the idea of them desiring to 'preserve traditional institutions'; (though some disagree) the National Socialists also rejected Christianity (or at least it being a fundemental part of their ideology) and thus can not be labaled as desiring to '[preserve traditional] customs'. Finally, the National Socialists did promote '[traditional] values' in the sense that they promoted 'traditional' family dynamics, but, importantly, only in 'Aryan' families. Other than that, traditional (Christian) values like 'you shall not murder' were encouraged, once again, only in the 'Aryan' community.

This is why I believe that the 'far-right' part of the lede for Fascism should either be removed or there should be a disclaimer that only some Fascist movements aspire 'ultraconservativism'. MicholIsUsed (talk) 17:57, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The word "conservative" is not used in the lede of this article, and the tension of fascism vs. traditional conservatism is already discussed in the "tenets" section, so I'm not sure what you actually want to be changed. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:38, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I changed my mistake. I guess the word 'far-right' shouldn’t be used in this article then, since as I explained, there is nothing 'ultraconservative' about National Socialism. MicholIsUsed (talk) 14:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RS say otherwise. Slatersteven (talk) 14:21, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please use striking and inserting to amend your comment, so that Writ Keeper's reply still makes sense. As for the rest, please see the FAQ. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In addition to everything Firefangledfeathers correctly says: "tends to be" is not the same as "equals exactly", so your entire chain of logic falls apart at the first link; "far-right tends to be radically conservative" means it is usually ultraconservative, but does not have to be precisely that. (There are many other problems with your logic, but since this is a talk page for improving the article and not a debating club, I'll leave it at that.) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:19, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

'tends to be' means that it usually is ultrsconservative. So if it isn’t 'ultraconservative', as 'far-right' ideologies 'tend to be', maybe the page shouldn’t state so confidently that Nazism is 'far-right'. And please explain my othee falsehoods as I am trying to improve the page by this discussion. MicholIsUsed (talk) 15:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We go by what RS say, RS say it is a far-right ideology. Slatersteven (talk) 15:16, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is RS? MicholIsUsed (talk) 19:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources. Please re-read the glossary before proceeding. - Sumanuil. (talk to me) 01:32, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Definition

The current definition shows bias. A much better alternative would be the Merriam-Webster #1 [Fascism]https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/fascism-meaning-and-history.

The right v. left issue is not solvable because it is dependent on the definition of extreme right. It is like + or - infinity in mathematics. They can be considered the same point: fascism is then right wing but anarchism is neither right or left. Or, they can be an infinite distance apart: Then anarchism is right wing but fascism is neither right or left.

I suggest that the article discuss this question rather than taking a position.

Clearly fascism is not left wing. There is a distinction between totalitarian and authoritarian. Tyrerj (talk) 05:10, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the notice you had to scroll past to post this. - Sumanuil. (talk to me) 05:30, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The position we take is what most RS say, this is one source. Slatersteven (talk) 10:23, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is probably going to come up a few times as John F. Kelly#Donald Trump's comments on Adolf Hitler featured him quoting this article's lead sentence word-for-word. I mean, I can see that it is an ongoing issue but the volume may go up for a few days. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 21:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is it time to add more contemporary examples?

I believe it would be quite imprudent to only update this page with examples of people who are only considered fascist in retrospect. Modern populist right-wing surges, spearheaded by the American MAGA movement, meet almost every commonly cited and authoritative definition of fascism.

I honestly believe anything short of adding fascist as a political ideology to the pages of Donald Trump and under the “factions” section of the Republican Party info box’s “ideology” section constitutes neutrality bias. At the very least, there should be discussion about Trump’s role within fascism in the article. Sitbear (talk) 03:27, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As always, we go by what reliable sources have already reported, not our own opinions. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 03:49, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As with the above, we go by RS, and we need to take into account wp:notnews and wp:primary, this is an election year.So we need to rely on proper analysis, and not political rhetoric. Slatersteven (talk) 10:25, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion happens a lot but in short the label of fascist where Trump is concerned is disputed. We should only add examples where it's more unambiguous. — Czello (music) 11:53, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is certainly disputed, but it is not at all ambiguous. I’ll try to find some reliable sources.Sitbear (talk) 10:47, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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