Talk:Solid South

Southern strategy

The addition of the information that the Civil Rights Act had Republican support is valid. Nevertheless, in 1968 Nixon did pursue a "Southern strategy" aimed at winning votes from Southerners who were hostile to the Act and to civil rights in general, so I've restored that reference and link. JamesMLane 21:43, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sources/References

Can some of our editors add a References section with the citations for this account and maybe some general bibliographic references on this subject? --Dystopos 22:10, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm tempted to delete many of these citations and request new ones, or a deletion of the context altogether. The first citation does not support the claim: "[The Solid South] was maintained by the Democratic Party's willingness to back Jim Crow laws and racial segregation." whatsoever. The final two references contain no citations at all. This article is not up to standards; I hope this will be fixed soon or else someone will tell me how the current citations convey the facts genuinely. 72.94.162.128 (talk) 17:20, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Merge with Southern Strategy

Please keep discussion on this page. I see no difference between the subject of this article and Southern strategy. It appears that their respective contributors are simply ignorant of the other's existence. There is a large duplication of content, although both contain information that the other does not. I do not know which title should be kept. I prefer Solid South, but I could be wrong. If they are not merged, I hope that this discussion will at least lay out a clear deliniation between the subjects of the articles such that there is no overlap in content and that it will be abundantly clear in the future where new content should be added. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 06:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. These are completely different topics, I believe. Southern Strategy explores the Republican Party's attempt to wrest the south from the Democrats; it's an article about a political strategy. Solid South is a history article. There's noting wrong with what you call "duplication of content" because the articles cover similar ground.Griot 16:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the previous editor. They are two separate articles, one dealing with a recent political strategy and the other with a political history that existed from after the Civil War until the 1970s. One could state that the Southern Strategy came ended the Solid South but that doesn't mean they should be one article.--Alabamaboy 17:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Oppose merger. The Solid South article covers a much longer time period. JamesMLane t c 18:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I oppose merging to one article, but I support reducing redundant content. Solid South should point to Southern Strategy for detailed information on the organized campaign and Southern Strategy should point back to Solid South for the context and aftermath of that project. --Dystopos 20:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is the content deliniation? Southern strategy starts with reconstruction and Solid South has a section for "Solid South today". I'm fine with the two articles remaining. Wikipedia is not paper so we don't have to merge slightly separate topics, but we need to redistribute some content between these articles. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 07:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Do not merge these two articles. Their topics, "Solid South" and "Southern strategy", are opposites, the first representing Democratic domination in the southern United States 1877-1964 and the second representing Republican domination 1964-present. The only similarity between the two concepts is that they are both consequences of white racism. Yes, the end of the Solid south is essentially the same as the start of the Southern strategy. Possibly Southern strategy could be shortened. Paul 04:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Last paragraph

While the last paragraph is probably largely factually correct as of October 2006, it seems to be both POV and, as far as I can determine, unreferenced. Comments? Rlquall 14:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph reads as follows:

As of pre-midterm elections, 2006, the political climate has begun to shift in the "Solid South" states. Wavering support for an unpopular war and repeated exposures of corruption and mismanagement of the Republican dominated Administration has made many staunch "Red States" not so "clearly-colored". September-October polls reveal larger support for Democratic candidates then in 2004. Much of this is attributed not so much as a shift in political ideology, but more to a growing disilluionment and resentment of the current Republican administration.

It wouldn't be hard to find citations for the proposition that most analysts expect the Republican Party to lose seats in 2006, in the South and elsewhere. Nevertheless, that point doesn't add much to the article. The preceding section (Solid South#The "Solid South" today) notes that the southern states' Congressional delegations are a mix of Democrats and Republicans. This makes it clear that the solidity of the "Solid South" is most notable in Presidential politics. The year-to-year fluctuations in the prospects of each party's House and Senate candidates don't need to be detailed. I'm removing the paragraph. JamesMLane t c 22:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The "Solid South" as a term for current realities in presidential elections seems rather dubious. The Democrats have won southern electoral votes in just about every election where they haven't been totally blown out, with the exception of the last two elections and 1988. It's worth noting that the "Solid South" doesn't just refer to presidential elections - other than Tennessee, the states of the Confederacy did not elect any Republican governors between 1896 and 1966, and no Republican senators for a comparable period (the first was John Tower in 1960). There is not, and has never been, a "Solid South" for Republicans, in the way that there was for the Democrats between 1880 and 1960. The situation today simply isn't comparable. john k 23:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The article draws the distinction, noting that the party mix is more balanced at the lower levels (Senator, U.S. House, governor). There certainly is a Republican predominance, though. In 1992 and 1996, the Democrats, with two Southerners on the ticket, split the South's electoral votes. In 1984, 1988, 2000, and 2004, however, they were completely shut out (and virtually shut out in 1980, with Carter carrying only his native Georgia). You're correct that it's not a complete mirror image of the 1880-1960 situation, but the current Republican advantage is worth mentioning. The South certainly didn't go from being solidly Democratic to being evenly contested between the parties in Presidential elections. JamesMLane t c 23:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

This is certainly true. My main issue was that I wasn't sure why the article seems so focused on presidential elections, when the Solid South was rather an across the board phenomenon. The article also focuses rather strongly on the end of the Solid South and the "Southern Strategy," which has its own article, rather than on anything else about it. Its origins with the end of Reconstruction (and the disenfranchisement of Black voters) are only discussed in the introduction, and only with respect to presidential elections. There's nothing about the Republican Party in the south before the 1960s (either in its "actually having real members" state in eastern Tennessee, western North Carolina, and the border states, and in its "entirely existing to receive federal patronage" state in the rest of the South), and nothing really about the political contours of the period in the south - there ought to be some discussion of the Populist challenge to Democratic dominance in the 1890s, for instance, the way the Progressives impacted southern politics (by, for instance, creating primaries that allowed for intra-Democratic party democracy, for white people, at least), and so forth. And, as I said before, the article is entirely focused on presidential politics, when the Solid South applies more or less across the board. john k 15:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The information you refer to could indeed be usefully added to the article. I'm not sure you're right in criticizing the emphasis on Presidential politics, though. My subjective impression of the use of the phrase is that it tended to occur more often in discussions of Presidential races. (The solidity of the South was indeed top-to-bottom; I'm referring only to how this particular phrase was used.) At any rate, we don't disagree about the relevance of the other stuff -- so feel free to fix it.  :) JamesMLane t c 02:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

As always, I'm much better at criticizing the flaws of articles than actually fixing them. I'll see about changing them. I would agree that "Solid South" is probably used somewhat more about presidential races than others, but, on the other hand, the Solid South frayed much sooner in presidential politics than it did elsewhere. Much of the South voted for a Republican presidential candidate in 1928, and the Solid South in presidential elections entirely left in 1948 and never returned, but the former Confederate states didn't elect a Republican senator until 1960 (Tower), or a Republican Governor until 1966 (Rockefeller and Kirk). Anyway, I'll see what I can do about expanding the article. john k 16:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed the last paragraph, I'm not sure why the democratic party's results in the north have anything to do with an article on the Southern Strategy/Solid South. Benkenobi18 (talk) 06:31, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Originated in Reconstruction?

What about the first Republican president's military invasion and conquering of their land? I think it's safe to say that the Solid South was solid well before Reconstruction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ScottJ (talk • contribs) 20:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Northeastern U.S.

Hey all. Just wanted to let you know that I made a small correction of the statement that said that in 2004, Kerry won all nine Northeastern states, from Maryland to Maine. I think whether Maryland can be considered a Northeastern state can be debated; some would class it as a Northern state, some would class it as a Southern state, and others would class it as a border state. Hence, I have changed the wording to state "from Pennsylvania to Maine" rather than from "Maryland to Maine." Also, if one does the math, Maryland plus all the Northeastern states equals ten states instead of nine. However, my correction has rectified this issue as well. Thanks.Gujuguy (talk) 17:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Maryland is too Southern to be considered Northern...if we are judging based on politics, then ND and SD are southern too huh? More Northern people "remind" me that I don't belong to them than Southern people. 69.251.26.101 (talk) 06:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Nixon's Grand Strategy

As political grand strategy, Nixon shifted his Republican party's basis to appeal less to liberals and more to conservatives, especially the southern conservatives of the 1960's. Often, these southern conservatives were in the forefront to oppose the many civil rights legislation passed during the 1960's. Although these southern conservatives had traditionally voted as Democrats, many southern conservatives felt alienated from the Democrat Party because of the Democrats strong emphasis on civil rights and desegregation, especially the civil rights of black Amercians. When Mississippi's black delegation to the Democrat National convention was seated in place of the white delegation, Richard Nixon and members of the GOP pursued as their Republican Party's basis a value system that would appeal to southern conservatives. During the 1980's, these southern conservatives became known as "Reagan's Democrats" because these southern conservatives voted solidly for the Republican Party, thus making the Solid South the conservative basis for the Republican Party. 125.162.168.156 (talk) 11:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

A nitpick. "Reagan Democrat" doesn't refer to Southerners who switched as a result of the civil rights era. It refers to working class people in the Northeast and Midwest who traditionally voted Democrat but went over to Reagan because the crises of the seventies had so thoroughly destroyed the credibility of their old party - inflation, gas lines et al ruined their economic cred (historically their strong point); the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Iran hostage crisis and revolution in Nicaragua were also blamed on the Democrats; and finally, there was the counterculture of the seventies (antiwar movement, sexual liberalism, rejection of traditional values and institutions) which alienated these Democrats' conservative social values.

In 1992 and 1996, Reagan and Bush's failure to fix the economy made it possible for Bill Clinton to target these voters and bring them back to the other side of the aisle. That's why they're called Reagan *Democrats* and not Republicans - they only switched for the duration of the 1980s. 216.15.41.45 (talk) 00:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Oklahoma

Oklahoma, which Congressional Quarterly considers part of the South, belongs in the table. Inclusion of Missouri is more questionable. Recommendation: Keep Missouri in, but add Oklahoma. Rammer (talk) 21:11, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Maryland

Why is this state not included? Missouri is, but Maryland isn't? In these days of the Solid South, when being a Democrat meant conservatism, Maryland was very much a part of the Solid South, on a local and national level. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.81.232.68 (talk) 03:14, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Maryland actually wasn't part of the Solid South and most notably didn't have to go through Reconstruction with the Confederate states. Ever since the LBJ days Maryland has remained solidly Democratic with Northeastern voting patterns, while the South has been solidly Republican up until the 2008 election (Sons of the South Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton being exceptions, especially the former). The same applies to Delaware and West Virginia. I don't know why Oklahoma isn't in the table though. Missouri is debatable, especially since its been considered solidly Midwestern since the 1900's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.224.16 (talk) 20:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I have to say, voting patterns mean nothing really. It's about lifestyle. MD is country, plain and simple. It has nothing in common with NY, but everything in common with VA. Just saying. 69.251.26.101 (talk) 06:14, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

You must remember, Maryland was also apart of the union, yet still allowed slavery. Maryland is a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too kind of state. So they vote democratic? North Dakota votes Republican, does that make it a Southern State? 3x more counties vote Republican in Maryland, they just don't have the population like Baltimore to pull off the victory. I'm tired of this "South/North Maryland" talk. We are a MID-ATLANTIC state and if we choose to be South or North, so be it. That's one thing we have the option to do, unlike any other state. Yall Southerners and Northerners don't want us, but yall gotta deal, period. Chic3z (talk) 19:23, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

The Clinton states & LA

Has it been corrected here in Talk that Clinton carried LA twice? I think the section on what BC carried could be made clearer w/ in the Southern Strategy - End of the Solid South section.

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/ http://www.uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/index.html 1992, Clinton, WV, KY, TN, Ark, LA & GA. 1996, WV, KY, TN, Ark, LA, FL.

151.204.190.111 (talk) 14:48, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Solid South based in disfranchisement of blacks

It's astounding that a contemporary article can feature the history of the Solid South and avoid discussing the real reasons, not just resentment by whites of Republicans but the whites' wholesale disfranchisement of blacks after Reconstruction, first through violence, assassination and intimidation at the polls, then by law - through new constitutions and amendments passed from 1890 to 1910 by every southern state in the former Confederacy. This is how the white Democrats excluded the African Americans, who were a majority of the population in some states and in many counties of the Deep South where cotton had been cultivated. It is also the means by which white Southerners exercised outsize power in Congress, as they had seats apportioned by total population, but they had excluded a great proportion of the population from politics. This disfranchisement is well documented, and I will be adding cited material to this article. The disfranchisement was not defeated until after Congressional passage of civil rights legislation in the 1960s. By that time, 6.5 million African Americans had already left the South in the Great Migration to escape its oppressive society.Parkwells (talk) 18:17, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top.
The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). - Nbpolitico (talk) 18:33, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

June 16th edits.

The claim that the south moved to the GOP party due to GOP appeals to racism is NOT at all an established fact. The original entry stated it as such without any citation. I have added a reference which states supports the view and one which refutes the view. I can add several more which refute the view but to avoid giving undue weight I left it at one reference each. If an editor feels this text shouldn't be in the article please justify why.Getoverpops (talk) 14:13, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

See the ongoing discussion at Southern Strategy that you are perfectly aware of. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see how that makes the edits here invalid? Please justify not including that information in this article. Note that my reference (Johnson and Shafer) and it's claim has been in the article for over two years. Getoverpops (talk) 14:19, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

The problem here is that the edit in question gives undue weight to a marginal point of view. It introduced a false equivalence and contained a weasel word, so was rightly reverted. gobonobo ^{+ c} 12:17, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

We have a disagreement then. The view is not marginal and if you feel that way please prove it. I can provide a number of sources academic sources that disagree. Which sources do you have that state otherwise? I would be happy to provide an extensive list of sources that say the Southern Strategy was not a factor in the move to the GOP. I would suggest you review WP:BALANCE.Getoverpops (talk) 03:37, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Second paragraph of lead section

It is little more than the Census outline of the "Southern United States" administrative region. That does not warrant half the lead. Dustin (talk) 06:05, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Legislative bodies of the former Confederacy

In the "Southern Strategy" today section, it says "Republicans control all 22 of the other legislative bodies in the former Confederacy". 22? That number seems too high. What legislative bodies does this text refer to? Dustin (talk) 21:22, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

The 11 full Confederate states all have bicameral legislatures so it presumably means the Republicans control(led?) both houses in all 11 of them. Timrollpickering 14:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

+

Presidential l votes in southern states 1852–1872
Year	Alabama	Arkansas	Florida	Georgia	Kentucky	Louisiana	Mississippi	North Carolina	Oklahoma	South Carolina	Tennessee	Texas	Virginia	West Virginia
1852	Pierce	Pierce	Pierce	Pierce	Scott	Pierce	Pierce	Pierce	No election	Pierce	Scott	Pierce	Pierce	Pierce
1856	Buchanan	Buchanan	Buchanan	Buchanan	Buchanan	Buchanan	Buchanan	Buchanan	No election	Buchanan	Buchanan	Buchanan	Buchanan	Buchanan
1860	Breckinridge	Breckinridge	Breckinridge	Breckinridge	Bell	Breckinridge	Breckinridge	Breckinridge	No election	Breckinridge	Bell	Breckinridge	Bell	Bell
1864	No election	No election	No election	No election	McClellan	Lincoln	No election	No election	No election	No election	Lincoln	No election	No election	Lincoln
1868	Grant	Grant	Grant	Seymour	Seymour	Seymour	No election	Grant	No election	Grant	Grant	No election	No election	Grant
1872	Grant	Grant	Grant	Brown	Hendricks	Grant	Grant	Grant	No election	Grant	Hendricks	Hendricks	Grant	Grant

Braganza (talk) 15:08, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

References

Black migration to Democratic Party in 1930's

In the 1930s, black voters outside the South largely switched to the Democrats, and other groups with an interest in civil rights (notably Jews, Catholics, and academic intellectuals) became more powerful in the party.

I'd like to see why this began happening. The following sentence tells what happens afterward, but not what happened before. E.g., was this associated with the growing socialist movement, or maybe the FDR/New Deal, etc.? And how were the Republicans, since the Reconstruction era, changing such that blacks felt this move was necessary, or did this have anything to do with it at all? Also, it would be extremely interesting to understand why blacks (and other minorities) remained with the Democrats even after the FDR years as their rights were still largely limited.

73.90.84.55 (talk) 19:11, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Two big reasons:

1. Lily-white Republicans. During the nadir of American race relations c. 1890-1920, Republicans abandoned the idea of an integrated Republican party, believing that African-Americans' disenfranchisement meant they would not be helpful in building a viable electoral coalition. As a result, most local Republican parties expelled African-Americans in an attempt to win over southern whites.
2. The New Deal won over a lot of poor blacks who benefited from its expansion of welfare programs and from the generally lower unemployment under FDR than Hoover.

Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 22:28, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

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jim justice party affliliation

jim justice was elected as a democrat so his box should be half blue hlaf red — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.202.132 (talk) 10:23, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Map at start

Arkansas voted Democratic in all 23 presidential elections from 1876 through 1964; other states were not quite as solid but generally supported Democrats for president.

This map is a bit deceptive for several reasons:

• The circumstances of 1876 make it a poor choice for inclusion, both because of the contentious nature of the Republican victories in the South and because the Republican disappearance was in part a consequence of the settlement.
• 1964 is also a bad end date as it's the election when the Deep South turned to the Republicans. Again including it gives a rather different impression.
• In 1948 and 1960 certain states that didn't vote for the national Democrat nominee were actually still voting for the Democrat line (as, indeed, was Alabama in 1968) but it was the state Democrat line due to the splits between the national and some of the state parties.

Would it be better to have a map showing 1880-1960 based on the success of the state Democrat line? Timrollpickering (Talk) 17:41, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I think that sounds good; hopefully we can fix the color scheme too, which is all over the map (pun fully intended). Why are states with 2-3 defections colored more lightly than those with 4-5?

We also might want to exclude West Virginia, as it was not a Confederate state (it split from Virginia specifically to join the Union), and we might want to include Maryland and Missouri (which were border states, much like Kentucky). Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 22:39, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I think you will have to call for a Rfc before changing the map without consensus. First of all, West Virginia was more supportive of the Confederacy than Kentucky, so removing it would not be historically accurate if you are basing it on the Confederacy alone. It is included in "Why the Solid South?" (1890), which was one of the first book on the subject. You would need more input. Dubyavee (talk) 23:03, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Lead Sentence Bolding

Is "Southern Bloc" that widely used outside of contemporary sources? It seems like it would have too many modern connotations compared to the much more period-specific "Solid South", in which case the lead sentence should be amended to read "at the time also known as the Southern Bloc" Orchastrattor (talk) 22:31, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Solid South/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: JohnAdams1800 (talk · contribs) 02:25, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Phlsph7 (talk · contribs) 08:06, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello JohnAdams1800 and thanks for all your improvements to this article. However, despite the improvements, the article fails criterion 2b since there are too many unreferenced paragraphs. I counted a total of 26 unreferenced paragraph in the body of the article. Examples are the paragraphs starting with "At the start of the American Civil War,", "By the 1920s, as memories of the Civil War faded", and "In the 1928 presidential election, Al Smith received". According to criterion 2b, these passages require inline citations "no later than the end of the paragraph". I suggest that you add all the relevant references before a renomination.

A few other observations

• WP:EARWIG detects no copyvios
• light blue represents southern border states and Missouri and Kentucky had dual competing Confederate and Unionist governments; this clause sounds odd because it repeats "and"
• Kentucky and Missouri both had dual competing Confederate and Unionist governments with the Confederate government of Kentucky and Confederate government of Missouri. add "the" before "Confederate government of Missouri"
• Filled unexpired term and was later elected in his own right. incomplete sentence

Phlsph7 (talk) 08:06, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Launchballer talk 19:50, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

County results, 1928

• ... that between 1892 and 1944, only in 1928 did the Democrats lose any counties (pictured) in Mississippi in any presidential election?

• Source:

• Reviewed:

Created by JohnAdams1800 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

JohnAdams1800 (talk) 18:06, 4 August 2024 (UTC).

• The article is the result of a major rewrite over much of this summer, which appears to have increased the quality quite a bit. Unfortunately however, it does not as far as I can determine fulfil the DYK criterion of being new enough, in that no five-fold expansion has taken place in the last seven days before it was DYK-nominated. Unless I have missed something completely in this regard, I am afraid it is not eligible for DYK. Yakikaki (talk) 16:55, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• Following a brief discussion on my talk page, I understand now that the nominator wanted to nominate this DYK in connection with the article getting GA status. I believe the nominator didn't understand the process fully, that it has to be nominated for DYK after passing GA, not after being nominated for GA. Some more experienced user can perhaps advise how we should proceed in this case. Should the nomination be failed (and can it then be re-submitted once the article has passed GA?), or can it be withdrawn somehow? Yakikaki (talk) 18:27, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

References

map does not reflect borders of the states at the time of the civil war

A map of the United States during the Civil War. Blue represents free Union states, including those admitted during the war. Light blue represents southern border states, though West Virginia, Missouri and Kentucky had dual Confederate and Unionist governments. Red represents Confederate states. Unshaded areas were not states before or during the Civil War.

For example, Nevada only had Utah territory transferred to it AFTER the civil war yet the map proclaims "A map of the United States during the Civil War."

This article is great to review such matters Territorial evolution of the United States

May 5, 1866 |The slice of Utah Territory west of 37° west from Washington was transferred to Nevada. |- NotQualified (talk) 19:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

this has been clarified with a note NotQualified (talk) 19:39, 29 October 2024 (UTC)