Talk:David Lammy

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Criticism section / Comments attracting criticism section

The section was just renamed, which got me to think the whole things should be broken up. Per WP:CRITS I'm thinking the different parts should be merged into the Views and Parliamentary career sections. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've deconstructed the criticism section and moved the different parts elsewhere in the article, apart from the part about white smoke and the Pope which I removed per WP:BALASP as it seems to have had no lasting importance. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:15, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Separate article for Lammy's tenure as foreign secretary?

Former prime ministers Boris Johnson and David Cameron have articles dedicated to their tenures as Foreign Secretary (Johnson, Cameron). Because, for example, Jeremy Hunt doesn't have one, there appears to be a rather arbitrary process for creating separate articles dedicated to the tenures of foreign secretaries. Therefore, does Lammy, as the first Labour foreign secretary this decade, merit his own article? Maurnxiao (talk) 21:46, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would depend on how much there is to write about, and if third parties report on it. I doubt there's an immediate need for a separate article, but that could well change. Johnson has a separate article as there's a lot to write about, while Cameron's one appears to have been separated out as the main article is already quite long (as he was PM before he was FS). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you and that does make sense. Maurnxiao (talk) 01:11, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redundant 'British' in the first sentence

The addition of British without any other changes to the first sentence is bulky and redundant. Maybe David Lindon Lammy (born 19 July 1972) is an English politician and lawyer who has served as Foreign Secretary of the United Kingdom since July 2024. (addition bolded) would work better. Any thoughts? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this. Maurnxiao (talk) 12:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've made the change. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mastermind Appearance

Why is there no reference to Lammy’s Mastermind appearance? Rustygecko (talk) 02:47, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"English politician"

This description in the lead section is completely inconsistent with literally every single other sitting MP. No sitting British MP is described as an "English politician" other than Lammy. Why is Lammy being singled out here, ActivelyDisinterested? ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 16:08, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That no others are described as such is not much of a reason to make the change, consistency isn't required. Everything I'm going to say has been said. See the arguments in the RFC above. That RFC was the result of months of talk page comments, and edits and reverts going back muh further. There is no consensus to make the change you want to make, and the onus is on you to find consensus to make it. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:26, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree it's ridiculous especially as he's literally the British Foreign secretary. AusLondonder (talk) 16:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a good enough reason to break with consistency against literally every single other MP in the category UK MPs 2024–present. He's a British MP just as much as any other, and singling him out as "English" is just absurd and frankly wp:pointy. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 16:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Consistency and being a British MP were brought up in the RFC , if you have any new arguments I'm willing to listen. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how this is a neutrality issue, the details are backed up by sources and the weight of those has been put through the RFC as well. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:45, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's absolutely a neutrality issue, given the subject of ethnicity having been brought up repeatedly. Again, there's no valid reason for this article to break with precedent, absolutely none whatsoever. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:01, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is not "no reason". Multiple reasons have been brought up in the RFC. If you have a reason or rationale as to why his nationality should be changed from English to British please feel free to provide them Bejakyo (talk) 18:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's no valid reason, and none of those "multiple reasons" brought up are valid. The reason is obvious, it's consistency with literally every single other article of a British MP. Lammy isn't a local politician, so describing him as an "English politician" is also completely misleading. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 20:29, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Calling him an English politican is perfectly clear and not at all misleading. Changing articles to enforce needless uniformity is againt WP:UKNATIONALS. Additionally citing consistancy is also incorrect --- there are plenty of articles of both sitting and former MPs are not described as in the first sentence British. confusion is particularl an invalid reason as there's no Parliament of England to be "mislead" or "confused" by, as well as the lead clearly describing him as as holding one of the Great Offices of the United Kingdom. Bejakyo (talk) 22:18, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's infinitely misleading. Again, he's literally the only sitting MP not to be described as a British politician, as evidenced here. How is he any more of an English politician than Keir Starmer, for example? He's not a local politician, he's a politician at the national level, and England isn't a devolved nation. Referring to him as an English politician is needless wp:pointy nonsense. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 22:28, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's perfectly clear. Again he is not the only MP sitting not to be described as British, there are multiple Scottish MPs who are described as such, as well as English MPs who while not presently sitting have indeed been sitting within the last few years. Even if there were not, again "consitancy" is not a valid excuse to impose a uniform description. Neither the devolution status or level of legislature of which they sit is relivent to their description. Bejakyo (talk) 22:55, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All MPs who sit in the British Parliament should be referred to as British politicians. Describing Lammy, or any MP, as an "English politician" implies a level of regional politics that simply doesn't apply at the national level. Lammy, like other MPs, operates in the British Parliament, representing constituents at the UK level, not in any devolved or local English context.

You mention former English MPs, but they're not relevant here because they are no longer involved in national politics. Some may have transitioned to local or regional roles, which would justify more region-specific labels. Lammy remains a national politician, and it's only logical that he be described as a British politician. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 15:04, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I've been a bit busy, there is not a consensus here to change and I don't see how it could be seen that way. Again consensus is required to make the change.

The only arguments I've seen that were not neutral have been some of the sillier arguments for changing this to British, the one that it should be changed for the sake of British unionism for instance (and the more obvious one). All the others I've seen have been good faith, I would have hoped that the same believe would have been shown here.

Consistency was an argument brought up in the RFC, it didn't gain consensus and it doesn't have one now. The idea that all MP should be described as British flies in the face of the fact that MPs do not have to be British (as in citizens of the United Kingdom), so any consistency for consistency sake would be a false consistency. Also he's not decribed even described as an 'English MP' but as someone who is English and a politician. So the argument has no basis there. Again this was all discussed in the RFC.

Unless there are new arguments I'm not going through all this again. The RFC and other discussions are all available for reading here and in the talk page archives. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:36, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There has never been a consensus to describe Lammy as "an English politician". This change was introduced without prior consensus, which is why we're even having this discussion now. The RFC you reference did not establish consensus in favour of the current phrasing; rather, it concluded with "no consensus".

In fact, more contributors supported maintaining the previous status quo where Lammy was described consistently with other MPs as a "British politician" than those who supported this change. The lack of consensus means we should revert to the previous phrasing until a clear majority supports a different description. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 14:52, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Very well put ActivelyDisinterested, Thank you Bejakyo (talk) 18:05, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]