Talk:New Democracy (Greece)

Untitled

What is the name of the party opposing this one in Greece, i.e. the one that just got slung out? Mr. Jones 11:08, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

PASOK Secretlondon 11:09, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks; the party seems to have at least three names, so I couldn't find it by scanning. User:Adam Carr, why did you delete the link I added without adding a link in the text? Any particular reason? Mr. Jones 13:39, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The party's name is Panhellenic Socialist Movement, and its Greek acronym is PASOK. The name is already linked in the text. It does not need another link. Adam 13:48, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Ideology of the party

Hi, you try to add New Democracy as a liberal party. Isn't this a conservative party? Since they align themselves with the International Democratic Union and EPP-ED... Intangible 16:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello there. I added New Democracy as a liberal party on the basis of its political program, which is defined on the official party platform as "radical liberalism", and "the prevalence of free market rules with the decisive intervention of the state in favour of social justice". That would not be considered exactly in step with most definitions of "conservatism" would it now? Porfyrios 17:01, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello there, Electionworld. I noticed that you removed the Greek New Democracy party from the list of liberal parties, on the basis of affiliation with international organizations. Are you sure that is exclusively how we want to judge the ideological leanings of political parties? I believe ND's program, which is defined on the official party platform as "radical liberalism", and more specifically "the prevalence of free market rules with the decisive intervention of the state in favour of social justice", would suffice to support a different position. Regards, Porfyrios 17:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Clear is that the New Democracy party is not the succesor of the old liberal and centrist current in Greece. The party is the continuation of the old National Radical Union ERE. I won't deny that liberals are involved in the party, the general profil is more conservative (see the New Democracy entry: liberal-conservative party. Alan J . Day in Political Parties of the World, 5th edition, labels the party as a moderate conservative party. The economic platform doesn't say all about the idologicla position, more conservative parties emphasize a free market and certian forms of intervention of the state. I would be interested to find out more about the political programme on separation of church and State, cultural liberty etc. Electionworld = Wilfried (talk 17:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, only yesterday, the New Democracy government repealed a law that was continuously standing from 1936 [1] (including 20 years of socialist rule), which required approval by the local Christian Orthodox Metropolitan for the building of temples by non-orthodox religious groups. As for cultural liberty, New Democracy's legalization of non state-owned radio and television channels, and the lifting of the state's monopoly on broadcasts (late eighties/early nineties) come to mind. A conservative current does also exist in New Democracy ; but that does not change the fact that the party lays claim to the mantle of liberalism, economically as well as politically. Porfyrios 17:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see some more interventions before adding the party as a liberal party. Electionworld = Wilfried (talk 18:03, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Could you explain what you mean by "interventions"? I'm afraid I don't understand it. Porfyrios 18:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I meant remarks or contributions to this discussion by other editors. Electionworld = Wilfried (talk 18:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm against it. —Nightstallion (?) 12:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Personally, i am for it. Indeed, ND is not related with the centrists before the colonels' junta. However, i strongly believe that we must judge parties' ideology by its present policy. Undoubtedly, ND is the political force that express liberalism in Greece. And I tell this because i am a greek citizen and not austrian.

It has no ideology... Mitsos 12:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, i agree with Porfyrios. Secondly, i would like to ask one simple question: how can you express an opinion for a political party, and especially its ideology, of a country since you don't live in it?. If we want this process to be objective we should not take into consideration interventions like Nightstallion's one.--Conefst 12:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

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By european standards, New Democracy is a conservative party. By american standards, both New Democracy and PASOK are liberal. but anyway, nowadays, except a few charismatic politicians on either party, PASOK's politics is quite the same to that of New Democracy. --dimitris

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Keep in mind that the closer you get to the former Soviet Block, the more libertarian the right wing parties get. Greece kind of qualifies since its left is so decidedly Marxist. Extreme example is Russia where (since 1991) the left is absolutely conservative and right is decisively liberal. Maybe another observation would help here: Νεα Δημοκρατια, the greek name can be equally well translated as New Republic. Actually I would say its the more accurate according to current common greek usage.Kotika98 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.240.159.11 (talk) 06:33, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not familiar with this party and I don't like these labels of left and right conservative or socialists. what is left and right is a matter of personal opinion. can someone that is familiar with this party just post their platform without using these innuendos? Thank you --OxAO (talk) 03:43, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I suggest we add "authoritarianism" to it's ideology category since the acts committed by the party (crushing peaceful protesting, having members and MPs that were supportive of the Junta) suggest authoritarianism Στάλιν και παραλλαγή (talk) 00:51, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Infoboxes

I suggest the creation of infoboxes for greek political parties. Greece is one of the last EU countries whose parties have no infoboxes.--Conefst 12:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:NewDemocracyLogo.png

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. _{El Greco}^(talk) 22:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

This party is not Centre-Right

Look what they did when in power.. no way centre-right. They are centre to centre left. Reaper7 (talk) 11:15, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree 100%. I am not sure why this party is beinglabelled as conservative or right wing. Please editors, follow their policies and don't trust the KKE that calls ND right wing. ND in any other country in the world would be considered a centre left party - virtually the same as PASOK in policy. Zeno77 (talk) 12:49, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

This party is not just centre right, it is right to far right.

I am a Greek, so please let me act as I know more and more accurate information about ND. Not only is it a conservative party since its foundation in 1974 (as it supports formally the Orthodox Church, it is fond of military, social conservatism and against the optional prnting of the denomination of a person in tis ID card in 2000-2001 and also against homosexual marriage), but after the 6th of May elections, ND has gathered many far-right former members such as Athanasios Pleuris, Adonis Georgiadis and others (all of them were members of LAOS or other neonazist or neofascist-nationalistic organisations. So ND must be characterised with today's data as right, social conservative and fiscal liberal, and also fond of xenophobia and nationalism. That's why I cannot understand the label that notes an outdated article.--Πάτρικ

You need to provide reliable sources that New Democracy is tending to the far-right. Cheers. – Kosm1fent 19:26, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I will, but if you just take a look in its website and pre-election declarations, it is clear that ND advocates the dogme of law and order, nationalism, militarism, religious intolerance anda return to the '60s and '70s.

LAOS was not really neo-Nazi or neofascist, despite being ultraconservative.Estlandia (dialogue) 13:15, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Centerism?

In what way is this party centrist? TURTLOS (talk) 01:41, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Populism and Greek political parties

It has become fashionable since SYRIZA's electoral victory in 2015 to describe SYRIZA (and Podemos, and other anti-austerity leftist parties) as populist, lumping them together with the far right across Europe and presenting New Democracy as anti-populist. I believe that those knowledgeable of Greek politics (and politics of other southern European countries) would recognize that this is an oversimplification produced by conservative and socialist parties that does not accurately reflect the truth. Greek politics, left and right is rife with populist rhetoric and it is hard to see why SYRIZA qualifies and New Democracy does not. In the last few years, particularly under the leadership of Antonis Samaras, New Democracy also attacked the government while in opposition saying that it would renegotiate the terms of the debt, then came to power and did nothing of the sort (unlike SYRIZA which at least tried); terrorized the electorate with Cold War rhetoric claiming that SYRIZA's victory would mean communism and being expelled from "the West"; and even encouraged a media fervor over the supposed discovery of the tomb of Alexander the Great to divert attention from the economy; not to mention the irrationality of voting against austerity measures while in opposition and simultaneously blaming the government for clashing with the creditors. If we take out the labels and try to put our political passions aside, Greek analysts and foreign observers of Greece must admit that populism is an embedded aspect of Greek politics and the old mainstream parties employ it just as much as anyone else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.69.52.84 (talk) 08:32, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Logo's possible influence

• Libertarian_Party_(United_States), note that New Democracy isn't as right as the Rebublican Party (abortion, healthcare etc.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:4113:B100:521:DD0:BDD1:7C5E (talk) 02:01, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

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Since November 2018 the party has adopted a new logo \ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.26.169 (talk) 15:36, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

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Centre, centre-right or right-wing?

New Democracy was founded by Konstantinos Karamanlis, who was Prime Minister of Greece for over seven years as a member of the right-wing Greek Rally party before the rise of a far-right military junta in Greece. Greek Rally used to be a right-wing to far-right party under Alexander Papagos, who supported Georgios Grivas, a former member of the far-right Organization X that had collaborated with Nazis against the resistance movement of ELAS during World War II when Greece was under German occupation. Grivas was the leader of the EOKA guerilla organization that fought against British rule in Cyprus, but Makarios III, the right-wing Archbishop and President of Cyprus, rejected the unification of Cyprus and Greece that Grivas and the junta supported and agreed with Karamanlis about the independence of Cyprus. The centist Democratic Party of Cyprus is supporting Makarios, but allied with the right-wing Solidarity Movement of Eleni Theocharous, a former member of the centre-right Democratic Rally, against current President Nicos Anastasiades, a member of the Democratic Rally who supported the Annan Plan about resolving the Cyprus dispute by accepting the demands of Turkey, an enemy of Greece for the last eight centuries. New Democracy is currently led by Kyriakos Mitsotakis, a nephew of Eleftherios Venizelos of the centrist Liberal Pary who endorsed the irredentist Megali Idea that originated by the centrist Ioannis Kolettis but is also promoted by the far-right Golden Dawn that represents the ideas of Ion Dragoumis, an opponent of the Megali Idea and Venizelos who is considered to be the founder of modern Greek nationalism. Therefore, Kyriakos Mitsotakis is also the son of Konstantinos Mitsotakis, who was Prime Minister of Greece for three years as a member of New Democracy but founded the centre-right Party of New Liberals after the fall of the junta as a former member of the Centre Union, a centirst party of former Prime Minister Georgios Papandreou whose son Andreas and grandson George Papandreou became Prime Ministers after the junta as members of the centre-left PASOK. Dora Bakoyannis, sister of Kyriakos Mitsotakis, was a Minister of Foreign Affairs under Kostas Karamanlis, nephew of Konstantinos Karamanlis, but she was expelled from New Democracy by Antonis Samaras, a former Minister of Foreign Affairs of Konstantinos Mitsotakis who was the leader of the right-wing Political Spring after disagreeing with Prime Minister Konstantinos Mitsotakis about the Macedonia naming dispute. Samaras had returned to New Democracy as Leader of the Opposition and rejected the austerity measures of George Papandreou that Bakoyannis had supported before founding the centrist Democratic Alliance. She returned to New Democracy shortly before Samaras became Prime Minister of Greece and continued to implement the austerity measures of Papandreou and Lucas Papademos, who was a technocrat that was supported by both PASOK and New Democracy in a coalition government for a few months before two consecutive elections that led to PASOK and New Democracy continuing their participation in the same government where the Democratic Left of Fotis Kouvelis, a former member of SYRIZA, was also supporting for a few months after the elections. Despite originating from the Centre Union, Konstantinos Mistotakis and Andreas Papandreou became rivals as leader of different parties after the junta when Konstantinos Karamanlis was Prime Minister of Greece. Mistotakis joined New Democracy before Papandreou became Prime Minister while endorsed by former supporters of the United Democratic Left, a left-wing party that had originated from former members of ELAS. United Democratic Left Grigoris Lambrakis had been assassinated when Karamanlis was Prime Minister as a member of the Greek Rally before the junta. Kouvelis was succeeded by Thanasis Theocharopoulos as leader of the Democratic Left after SYRIZA won the elections for the first time. Fofi Gennimata then became leader of PASOK, succeeding Evangelos Venizelos who had supported austerity as a minister in the governments of George Papandreou, Papademos and Samaras. The Movement of Democratic Socialists of George Papandreou was founded in opposition to Venizelos when Samaras was Prime Minister of Greece but supported PASOK under the leadership of Gennimate. Yanis Varoufakis, a former advisor of George Papandreou as Leader of Opposition when Konstas Karamanlis was Prime Minister of Greece, and Zoe Konstantopoulou, daughter of Nikos Kontantopoulos who was a member of Centre Union and PASOK and former leader of SYRIZA, left SYRIZA alongside Panagiotis Lafazanis and supported the Popular Unity party in the elections when SYRIZA was supported by Kouvelis and won re-election after accepting austerity measures alongside New Democracy and PASOK, with the Democratic Left under Theocharopoulos becoming a member of the Movement of Change under PASOK leader Gennimata, before returning to SYRIZA. Varoufakis and Konstantopoulou have left Popular Unity to found their own parties MeRA25 and Course of Freedom, respectively. Therefore, I believe that New Democracy has always been right-wing with Konstantinos Karamanlis representing the majority of the party, where the far-right beliefs of Grivas were represented by Failos Kranidiotis, leader of the far-right New Right party and former member of the Political Spring who was expelled from New Democracy by Kyriakos Mitsotakis due to controversial statements regarding the Macedonia naming dispute. A faction of New Democracy that endorses the views of Papagos is represented by Adonis Georgiadis and Makis Voridis, former members of the right-wing to far-right Popular Orthodox Rally that was founded by former New Democracy member Georgios Karatzaferis. Kyriakos Mitsotakis, Dora Bakoyannis and Konstantinos Mitsotakis are representing a centre to centre-right faction of the party as relatives of Eleftherios Venizelos. Just like the Democratic Left and SYRIZA under current leader Alexis Tsipras, PASOK was a centre-left to left-wing party under Andreas Papandreou. PASOK became centre-left under Costas Simitis, centre-left to centre under George Papandreou and centre under Evangelos Venizelos. George Papandreou then became centre-left as leader of the Movement of Democratic Socialists. Gennimata, who is also centre-left as leader of PASOK and Movement for Change and criticized both New Democracy and SYRIZA for austerity, has expelled Venizelos from her party before the last elections. SYRIZA under Konstantopoulos and Alekos Alavanos, Popular Unity and Course of Freedom were left-wing to far-left since they opposed the Communist Party of Greece, a historical far-left party, while MeRA25 is left-wing for being supported by two former PASOK members, specifically Sofia Sakorafa and Kriton Arsenis, the son of Gerasimos Arsenis, a former minister of PASOK and Louka Katseli, who left PASOK under George Papandreou because of austerity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 03:41, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

5.54.142.32 has left a shortened version on my talk page:

New Democracy is divided between Karamanlis and Mitsotakis. Karamanlis comes from the Greek Rally and Mistotakis comes from the Centre Union that was divided between the Party of New Liberals of Mitsotakis that joined New Democracy and PASOK that Andreas Papandreou founded alongside former supporters of the United Democratic Left. PASOK shifted from centre-left to centre so it's mostly left-wing base joined SYRIZA that originated from former members of the far-left Communist Party of Greece.

Ezhao02 (talk) 22:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I personally think that the party should be considered a centre-right to right wing party because the party does contain people who are from the centre or even the centre-left but it also contains people from the far-right.So to appease both the people who describe it as a "far-right neo-nazi party" and the people who call it a "centre to centre-left party"I think we should put as a Centre-right to Right wing party. Takis S1 (talk) 19:44, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

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Centrism

The sources that describe the party as centrist are incorrect. The first one comes from the npr source that is not neutral, is fully liberal and there is a whole page about NPR Controversies. The other two, does not say that ND has centrist factions or that the party is centrist. They just mention Mitsotakis' words, that says that the party is moving to the center. This is self-report and of course, is completely wrong about the party's profile. 62.74.13.204 (talk) 00:26, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Done . Greek Rebel (talk) 09:13, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Also New Democracy is not far-right. Reliable sources are saying that it is centre-right to right-wing party. Qba0202 (talk) 15:00, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

That's a baseless claim. In the infobox it is only stated that there's a far-right faction, which does not necessarily moves the party to the far-right position of the political spectrum. --QuintusHaterius (talk) 02:18, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Addition of content

@BastianMAT, Autospark, and Ezhao02: I've noticed the disruptive addition of content by unregistered users and this still hasn't been settled down. We need to settle a consensus regarding the addition of right-wing populism and far-right factions in the infobox. Are those sources reliable, is the infobox undue? ND has been widely known as Greece's main center-right party, which means that the party definitely has more centrist and more right-wing factions, sources even back up this statement. We have to discuss. --Vacant0 (talk) 12:22, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I've also RfPP due to these disruptive edits, an ideology section will also have to get constrcuted. --Vacant0 (talk) 12:27, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I think the "far-right factions" phrase is definitely undue, considering that there's only one reliable source given (the Haaretz one is an opinion piece that shouldn't be used here). I don't really have a problem with "right-wing populism", although I would prefer to have more sources for it. Ezhao02 (talk) 14:01, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we should add "right-wing populism" to the Infobox on the strength of journalistic articles, particularly if there is only a single one being referenced – that is WP:UNDUE. That really is a term that should be reserved for more radically right-wing parties. Also, my general option is that political party articles should list at the very most three ideologies in their Infoboxes. Factions and so on should be described in the article bodies, more specifically in a specific Ideology section where available.--Autospark (talk) 15:55, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

ND is not traditionally, a centre-right party. It was actually the main right-wing Greek party and the last years it transformed to a centre-right to right-wing one, but the right-wing conservative factions remain and they are the majority of the members. Also a user says that "ND has centrist factions", something that is completely wrong. It's true that the Greek prime-minister said that he is going to add centrist members at the government, but these members proved to be politicians that support economical liberalism. The prime-minister tends to use centrist phraseology, but the actions remains approximately the same as at every ND government. The government has a progressive agenda about LGBTQIA+ community and at the other social issues it has a highly conservative profile: at education, policing and labour-employees-demonstration issues. At the other side, at the economical issues the government tends to be more liberal than ever (economic liberalism = cente-right/right-wing). About "right-wing populism", maybe Kyriakos Mitsotakis has not a populist profile, but there is a large section of the party, that are actually the definition of this kind of politicians. For example, the vice-president of the party, A.Georgiades, is coming from the populist, nationalist and conservative party of LAOS and also a lot of members (including the ex prime-minister of Greece, A.Samaras) are right-wing populists. About "far-right" there was a suggestion at Greek wikipedia with some sources, finally it wasn't accepted, though there are some members that have a far-right profile (some of the populists I mentioned before, members with ultra-conservative views and even a member that belonged at the youth of a party that supported the former military dictatorship [this member is also a minister at the government]). Greek Rebel (talk) 22:51, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

That needs backing up with scholarly sources otherwise it is WP:OR. The factions and history of the party, including historical ideologies, really need to be in an Ideology section. Also, note that the existing references sources for "Pro-Europeanism" in the current Infobox do not actually state that in the source text, and the reference for "Right-wing populism" is not entirely conclusive.--Autospark (talk) 15:08, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Hello, sorry for my late answer. I agree with you Autospark and Vacant0. Based on this discussion, I think it should be clear, the three main ideologies of the party is pro europeanism, christian democracy and liberal conservatism (only these 3 should be up in ideology). Political position should be centre-right to right-wing and there definitely are enough credible sources to back this up. For what Greek Rebel said, if there are enough sources to back a small faction, a mention in fifth goverment could be made. It isn't enough to be up on position as all other credible sources state the party is centre-right (and some state its right) and same reason as Greek wikipedia as most claims are that its only a few members and as Autospark said it will need scholarly sources or big media sources such as BBC which are credible. Have a good day everyone! BastianMAT (talk) 21:47, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 19 August 2021

Leader Autospark (talk) 15:06, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done it is unclear what exactly you want changed. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:24, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Covid-19

The approach used was actually much criticised with many demonstrations especially the decision to stall the employment of non-vaccinated medical personnel. Additionally Greece had a very bad survival percentage for covid patients in hospitals. So the reference in Mitsotakis' governance is at least lacking if not simply misinformation. 46.199.40.3 (talk) 03:49, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Debt

They are in a big depth as they owe millions the past years and the amount is increasing by the year 46.199.40.3 (talk) 03:45, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

There is a big debt in the millions that is increasing by the year. The debt of the party has spark much controversy as it is has been increasing despite promises of current prime minister. 46.199.40.3 (talk) 03:51, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

No information on misrule in the 2019-2022 period?

I can't help but note that there is a problem with the article as it stands: The article is lacking any information about New Democracy's negative record of misrule and poor governance which is characterized by autocratic tendencies, on serious issues ranging from human right violations to financial corruption. There is no mention of the migrant pushbacks, financial mismanagement, escalation of endemic corruption, the attempt to cover up the Novartis scandal, the attacks to the Freedom of the press and the unresolved murders of prominent journalists, the 2022 Greek Watergate scandal (the surveillance scandal as is dubbed by the world media) and more. Shouldn't there be any adequate mention of the party's poor records considering the widespread attention it has received for that from both the world and local media? - ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 22:32, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

when did the party exactly attacked freedom of the press? This is an assumption deriving from subjective research which has been challenged. The "migrant pushback" is simply Turkish propaganda. Novartis scandal was invented by SYRIZA to accuse the opposition and consolidate power, making Greece something like Venezuela. SYRIZA does everything possible to destroy the reputation of the country. 2A00:23C8:9656:2601:943C:ABD5:9AC9:F810 (talk) 08:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Position

Right-wing

The party is considered to cover the area from the center-right to the right-wing, often considered to also be on the far-right, due to prominent politicians such as Thanos Plevris, Adonis Georgiadis, Makis Voridis and Antonis Samaras. There is no Greek party that's considered to be to the right of New Democracy, which isn't essentially universally far-right (Golden Dawn, Greek Solution, etc.). The designation should at least be "center-right to right-wing". --Antondimak (talk) 08:19, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

the lack of a moderate right-wing party is not a good argument since this probably applies to most european countries, i am not into greek politics so i don't know if center-right to the right-wing or just centre-right is the better option Braganza (talk) 12:46, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

The party is generally considered to "cover" the area of the Right-Wing. It's not just the lack of a different party. --Antondimak (talk) 19:24, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Essentially Greek Solution is party that could be considered 'right wing' (although I understand why a large number of scholars see it differently). It started as an openly pro-Russian party but there's nothing really extreme on their founding declaration. New Democracy has a number of MPs of center-left background too. Under Samaras they had a more right-wing rhetoric. Under Mitsotakis many politicians of centrist or center-left background entered, while those of far-right background have remained. If you go by the background of MPs then put the label 'Center-left to Far-right'. Apostolos Papadimitriou (talk) 17:24, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Edit War over "Political Position"

I've seen an edit war taking place over whether ND is centre-left, centrist, centre-right, right-wing, or far-right. It seems to me that ND, like many EPP members, is a mainstream centre-right party with the usual range of factions, like the CDU, the Tories, the PP, etc. Therefore, I propose that we establish a consensus that for "political position" we put "centre-right", and then add a footnote, as with Nippon Ishin no Kai, explaining the various factions and theories about ND's ideology (ie, it has been described as centrist, centre-left, and right-wing, while certain members have been connected with far-right groups). PtolemyXV (talk) 01:06, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

There is a plethora of sources that can back the claim. 78.147.205.219 (talk) 20:53, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

New Democracy is center-right only

Hi! I noticed a conflict in the political position of the party. I think that as long as the official website of the political party says that: <<New Democracy belongs to the great political family of the center-right parties of Europe, firmly committed to the principles of freedom, democracy, social justice and prosperity.>> we should change it to center-right only and remove right-wing or others. What do you say? Fronxofficial (talk) 15:16, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Right-wing again

I find it weird that they are listed as right-wing despite they want to legalize SSM, they don't appear to be more right-wing than other EPP parties (especially nowdays)

1. Jacobin (left-wing newspaper) wrote: "Greece’s elections on Sunday brought a conservative majority — and seats in parliament for three far-right parties." so its not about ND specifically
2. Aljazeera & Eekathimerini quote interviews but i would say they count
3. France24 says it directly but it could be french terminology
4. Economist doesn't even say it: "GREECE’S RULING centre-right New Democracy (ND) party came first by an impressive and unexpected margin in an election held on May 21st; but it narrowly failed to secure an outright majority in parliament."
5. Same with second source from Eekathimerini: "In order to regain some of its lost dynamic, the conservative party will have to successfully navigate the quicksand of its ideological identity, balancing the expectations of centrist and right-wing voters."
6. Deutsche Welle says it directly

Braganza (talk) 11:33, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

"seats in parliament for three far-right parties" The far-right parties which currently have seats in the Greek parliament are the Spartans (ultranationalists), Greek Solution (ultranationalists and religious conservatives) and Victory (religious conservatives). New Democracy was never part of the Greek far-right. Dimadick (talk) 15:43, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@Dimadick: i know but this source is just for the article that ND is right-wing

for me it looks like the article just speaks about the situation that the part right of centre got a clear majority Braganza (talk) 16:46, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Braganza is his assessment. I also support keeping just “centre-right” in the Infobox.— Autospark (talk) 20:38, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@Fronxofficial, Antondimak, Greek Rebel, Qba0202, QuintusHaterius, Ezhao02, Takis S1, PtolemyXV, Alkis2210, Chatzzz, BastianMAT, and Vif12vf: i think thats everyone involved in it who is not an IP user Braganza (talk) 16:49, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

They don't want to legalise SSM. When same-sex civil unions were legalised by the SYRIZA government, ND, including its current leader, who was already the party president back then, voted against the law. Since ND formed a government in 2019, opposition parties have proposed SSM and the ND majority has continuously rejected it. Mitsotakis personally now said that he wants to legalise it in some form, but there has been massive internal opposition, and he has postponed it indefinitely. If he manages to pass it, it is expected to be using the votes of the opposition, as much of his own party of ND is expected to vote against it. There is also much to be said about the specifics of the law proposed (and how it technically could even remove rights instead of granting any) but we probably shouldn't get into that right now.

Centre-Right is the term used by ND itself, because it sounds better to voters, especially in Greece where the term "Right" used to be sort of a slur for some time (compare the term "Socialist" in the USA). It is considered to cover the whole range from the Far-Right to the Centre, so it could be called a generally Right-Wing party.

According to exit polls, half of the voters who self-identified as Far-Right (who are considered to be some of the most extreme ones, as most holding Far-Right ideas tend to self-identify as just Right-Wing, as "Far-Right" is still kind of a slur and hasn't had the same rehabilitation the simple term "Right" has had) stated to have voted for ND.

When it comes to politicians/members, a lot of them have plain Far-Right background. Almost all of the high-profile politicians from the Popular Orthodox Rally have joined ND, and the current president of Spartans also used to be a member of ND. --Antondimak (talk) 17:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

"a lot of them have plain Far-Right background" Including Makis Voridis, who was previously affiliated with the National Political Union. I am aware that several of these guys have connections to the Greek junta, but joining New Democracy tends to give them an air of respectability. Unfortunately, the Greek public does not care about their shady past. Dimadick (talk) 22:51, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

To mention another example for non-Greek participants in the discussion, Adonis Georgiadis, possibly the second most powerful person in the party, who is also one of the politicians who transferred from the Popular Orthodox Rally, has published the book "The Jews: The Whole Truth", an extensive anti-Semitic work on Holocaust Denial, written by the man generally recognised as Greece's "leader of the National Socialist movement". Antondimak (talk) 17:36, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Correction: My memory betrayed me. The civil union bill was passed earlier than I remembered. Mitsotakis wasn't the President of the party and he voted in favour of it, while most of the party voted against it or abstained. Antondimak (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Even though the general consensus of the party is Centre Right it does contain right wing and far right people including one of the two vice presidents Adonis Georgiadis so I believe that we should either keep the status quo of centre right to right or say that its centre right with right and far right factions. Takis S1 (talk) 16:21, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

It has members all over the Right, from Centre-Right to Far-Right. Isn't that what the general "Right-Wing" label generally means? Saying it's Centre-Right with Right and Far-Right factions is like saying it's Far-Right with Right and Centre-Right factions. If we use a general label, it should be close to the "Centre" of the spectrum the party covers, or be less specific as a term, with a plain "Right-wing" designation achieving both.

It's also not like there is a dominant Centre-Right faction that is more powerful than the others, I'd say. The historical "Centre-Right" faction, the "Karamanlis faction", is currently probably the least powerful faction in the party, with part of it even having defected to SYRIZA after ND's Far-Right turn. Antondimak (talk) 13:53, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

This is an old problem and I would probably remove positions from party infoboxes altogether. Surely a centre-right party is broadly part of the right-wing (and, in some countries like France and the United States "right-wing", or "conservative" btw, is used much more than "centre-right", or "liberal-conservative" btw—see similar discussion at Talk:The Republicans (France)#Liberal-conservative, really?). This said, by European standards, ND, a EPP member, is a centre-right, liberal-conservative party. --Checco (talk) 08:00, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this is a good indicator. Fidesz was also part of the EPP for a long time, and political differences with its leadership weren't really important until Orban decided to come into open conflict with it, which is when it was expelled. Antondimak (talk) 17:37, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

@Antondimak: Fidesz was expelled though after they became unhinged Braganza (talk) 08:40, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Fidesz was expelled long after it became Far-Right, and Greece is currently in a similar position to where Fidesz was before, although there are differences in strategic alliances that could change ND's future. It has however already been condemned multiple times by the EU Parliament for systematically violating the rule of law, among other issues. Antondimak (talk) 10:19, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, it is common knowledge that wiretapping the conversations of politicians became standard practice under New Democracy. Dimadick (talk) 08:19, 10 March 2024 (UTC)