Talk:Elfstedentocht

Piet Keizer

The Piet_Keizer mentioned on this page can't be the one linked to, unless he won the Elfstedentocht when he was three years old. And iceskating and playing soccer are two different things. -- Vinny

That's right. I've changed the link. Eugene van der Pijll 17:18, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Skating at the world war

I couldn't help but notice that the race happened at three consecutive times during the world war II (1940, 41, 42).

Now, when reading about the war we always hear that the 1942 winter was particularly cold. So, could this be a proof of the fact that those years really had cold winters?

On the other hand, Netherlands was invaded exactly at 1940. I'm thinking that perhaps the nazis "forced" the race for some political reason, or whatever. Afterall, the races are pretty much scattered by the other years!...

So, my question is: is it just pure luck that those winters were actually very cold (as we always hear about 1942) and I'm paranoid, or does the invasion has something to do with the occurence of those three races? Notice the allies only came at 1944, so we would have to explain 1943... -- NIC1138 00:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The 1940 one doesn't count, invasion 10th of MAY, moths after the 1940 race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.53.112.226 (talk) 09:27, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

I guess the Nazis did not want to have any conflicts, because they needed their troops elsewhere. So they allowed such events, claiming they respect their traditions. The Nazis were interested in keeping the people calm. Besides issues about common race it might be also noted that ice skating was (and is) very popular in some German regions too and there might be real understanding for this tradition. --84.129.214.194 (talk) 01:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

According to the book "The Hiding Place" by Corrie ten Boom, an evangelist and Dutch resistance worker, the first year of the German occupation saw a boom in Dutch business (her family were watchmakers). Martinvl (talk) 08:20, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, first of all, the elfstedentocht is organized by a private organisation regardless of national sport federations or politics. The Frisians being the stubborn people that they are, I guess the tour would have been skated, when the ice permitted, even if the germans had tried to ban it. Trying to stop an eleven cities tour when the opportunitie arrises is nothing short of sacrilege.

Besides, as mentioned before, the 1940 tour was held before the german invasion and in the first year-and-a-half of the occupation the germans tried very hard to win over the dutch populace to support the german war effort. After all, the germans considered the dutch to be part of the same germanic 'herrenvolk' and in world war I the dutch had been very sympathetic towards the german cause because of perceived atrocities of the british against dutch decendants in the Boer wars in South Africa.

However, the liberal minded dutch cared not much for the nazi doctrine and generaly disliked the germans for invading their country. It was not until the first signs of mass protest arised in february 1941, with the february strike that the germans realised this and repression started in earnest —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.211.85.98 (talk) 22:26, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Social, cultural and sports life largely went on as usual during the first two or three years of the German occupation of our country, so there wasn't really much reason not to have an elfstedentocht. No doubt people badly wanted that race, especially in war time (a Dutch saying about the race: when it freezes in Frisia, the Frisians thaw).

It's a known fact that Europe saw some extremely cold winters during WWII, it can be found in descriptions of life in the ghettos, the concentration camps, the battle of Stalingrad, etc. The weather might even have influenced the outcome of the war (Stalingrad is often seen as a major turning point of WWII).

I certainly don't believe Hitler "forced" anything about the elfstedentocht. He did not have the power to freeze the Frisian waters, and even less to thaw the Frisians. Especially in that part of the country people follow only their own minds. Also it would have influenced perception of the event after the war, but I've never heard of that, the event never carried any political significance.

In 1941 the organizing committee at first didn't want to organize the race because of practical issues raising from the German occupation. Especially the blackout was a problem (because of its length the race must start hours before first daylight). Only when the freezing weather lasted for weeks the committee changed their minds under the pressure of public opinion, and the race was held on 6 February. The committee urged the participants not to "abuse" the event to protest against the German occupation.

Both in 1941 and 1942 large parts had to be skated in the pitch dark (because of the blackout) and several participants were arrested because of curfew law.

There was no elfstedentocht in the winters of 1942/1943 and 1943/1944. Perhaps because of ice and weather conditions, perhaps because of German repression, I'm not sure.

The winter of 1944/1945 was again very cold, so perhaps a elfstedentocht would have been possible. But now German repression was extreme, all available food and fuel was confiscated and exported to Germany, many thousands in the Netherlands died of starvation and hypothermia. Social life had halted completely and no elfstedentocht was considered. (And I guess most people already had used the wooden parts of their ice skates as heating fuel.) Another consideration would have been that at that time many Jewish refugees were hiding in the Frisian lake district, and their lives would have been jeopardized by an event attracting thousands of people.

Nope, no nazi propaganda involved, I can't believe that.

(this information comes partly from the Dutch wikipedia article on the 1941 elfstedentocht, partly from interviews I had on the subject many years ago with a lovely old Frisian lady :) Jaho (talk) 04:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

What do you think about the razzia's in the Netherlands: the hunt for able bodied man? It was just far too dangerous in 1944/1945. Eddylandzaat (talk) 03:03, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

This article does not cite any references or sources

I think the article does cite references and sources.. Why does it raise questions and how can that be improved? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kletskous (talk • contribs) 21:34, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

The statement concerning the lack of references is dated 2008. I added most of the references in 2009 and caused a problem when somebody tried to revert some of my links to the Dutch langusge Wikipedia. (List of winners) Martinvl (talk) 08:20, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Reinstatement of Dutch links

I have re-instated the Dutch links.

WP:LINK defines the Wikipedia policy on foreign language links. In particular may I draw your attention to the phrase in the section that discussed non-English language sites: "Linking to non-English pages may still be useful for readers ... when the webpage contains key or authoritative information found on no English-language site and is used as a citation". If you can find English language references to the people named in the winners list, then please replace the Dutch language link with thise links. If not, then leave the Dutch links alone and don't deprive those of us who can read Dutch of the ability to follow them up - after all this is a Dutch event.

I have been through most of them and within the English-language version of Wikipedia, they would fail to qualify for inclusion in Wikipedia under the WP:NOTE criteria. In my view, they barely qualify under the Dutch rules, but the Dutch editors have seen fit to write articles on each winner, so it is only right that there be links from other language sites to the Dutch site.

BTW, if you have ever looked at the Dutch Wikipedia site, you would be surprised how often they reference English-language articles.

Martinvl (talk) 19:56, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:UE

I've got no problem with the Dutch links, but I do have a problem with an article's title violating WP:UE. Amazingly, we get not one, but two non-English titles before we get to the English one. I'll be moving. HuskyHuskie (talk) 20:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I feel that the translation of the name to be unacceptable. It was done without seeking the views of any member of the Wikiproject Nederland or Wikiproject Friesland. In the United Kingdom we happily speak about the Tour de France - we don't use French tour. We happily speak about the Autobahn, Autostrade and Autoroute even though they can all be translated to motorway.

Finally, please seek consensus before making a change of this nature. I for one am against it. Martinvl (talk) 06:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, I can understand how someone might object to something that has been here for a while, but WP:UE exists to make sure that this is a friendly resource for those who speak English only. Regarding the Tour de France and Autobahn examples, those terms are used almost universally in the English-speaking world, and that is why their articles are so-titled. WP:UE in fact says to use the foreign term if that term has achieved greater currency in the English-speaking world. But this is not the case, not for this article. While usage of both Elfstedentocht and Eleven Cities tour can be found in some English-language sources, the former are almost always found alongside of the latter, whereas the latter often appears solo. Whether you are looking at news sources[1][2] or tourist information[3][4] or even a site originating in The Hague for Anglophonic expats[5], the more common English usage is "Eleven Cities Tour", not Elfstedentocht. And it is that commonality of usage that dictates what we follow here. HuskyHuskie (talk) 07:07, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I also object to the move, I have never heard of the eleven cities tour. Did the mover just make this name up? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 13:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I notice from User:HuskyHuskie's user page that he is probably American, and apart from one of his references, thay are all American in origin. The one which is not American, uses the word "Holland" instead of "Netherlands", which in my view lowers its quality. I am however prepared to accept that HsukyHuskie acted in good faith but has fallen victim to a difference in British and American cultures. Perhaps the easiest way to explain this difference is to invite readers to Google the word "chaffeur". When I did so, all of the hits were from British sites, so I assume that while the British are happy to use that word, the Americans are not. I also looked up Elfstedentocht and Telegraph on Google and very rapidly came across five entries from the Daily Telegraph. The Daily Telegraph is a quality British newspaper, perhaps more right-wing or xenophobic in its views than say The Times, [[[The Guardian]] or The Independent. I therefore judge that if The Daily Telegraph is prefers to use the word Elfstedentocht, then that is standard British use. This brings me on to WP:MOS which states that editors should stick to either British English or American English, with the original editor making the choice. By using the word Elfstedentocht, the original editor was implicity using British English. Please restore the article to British English. Martinvl (talk) 13:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I have conducted my own Google search, limited to the British sources suggested above. I am convinced, and regret any inconvience caused. I endorse moving the page back, though I believe I am unable to do it myself, if I understand the way things work around here. HuskyHuskie (talk) 18:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, it looks like we have progressed in the Bold, discuss, consensus, revert cycle. So I will move it back. Thanks for the consensus! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Longest skate race in the world - Fresno CA. to Bakersfield, CA. 138 miles

I presented a skate race in 1991 that started in Fresno, California and ended in Bakersfield, California. The distance was 138 miles from start to finish. The winner of the race was Sandy Snakenberg who did it in 9:21:42. The event was featured in Sports Illustrated Magazine in June, 1991 http://www.cora.org/SportsIllustrated6-91.htm It was also featured on the front pages of several newspapers including the Fresno Bee http://www.cora.org/FresnoBee4-14-91.htm and the Bakersfield Californian http://www.cora.org/bakersfield4-14-91.htm

This event is longer than the one mentioned here which is about 124 miles long. However ours was an inline skate race as opposed to an ice event.

D. Miles Jr. The GodFather of Sk8 http://www.cora.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.67.145.59 (talk) 21:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

2012 Elfstedentocht

I've reverted the removal of the 2012 stuff from the article for now. It is looking increasingly likely that the race will be run this year. I partially accept the WP:NOTCRYSTAL argument, but that would apply more to a 2013 race than this one. If the race is run, I would expect that it would be capable of sustaining its own article, with the section in this article giving a brief overview. Keeping the info here for now aids the moving of material and rewriting process by keeping sources available. I reject the WP:NOTNEWS argument. Should the race run, coverage is likely to be worldwide, not just restricted to the Netherlands.

Should it be announced that the race is not go ahead, then the material can be deleted, with maybe a sentence or two in the history section. Mjroots (talk) 15:06, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Mjroots. Next week, regardless of whether the race is run or not, I would like to consolidate the information gathered into a coherent piece section that will use 2012 as a case study to the build-up of the race. Meanwhile, the number of hits that the article is getting (18,000 yesterday as against an average of 50 or so) is indicative of considerable interest.Martinvl (talk) 15:19, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I strongly suggest you move the section to a sandbox area on your userspace and develop it further there for a separate article (e.g.) 2012 Elfstedentocht. Even if the race will go ahead there is too much coverage for the page Elfstedentocht, there is only brief mention of past races in the history section including about the legendary race of '63 and the race of '97 isn't even mentioned at all. It would smack of recentism if the 2012 race had its own section and the other races are only mentioned in a single line or not at all.

BTW all the media speculation is not worth a thing and reports about the thickness of the ice here and there is almanak/statsbook-like which WP is also not. The only truly RS in this is the Vereniging De Friese Elfsteden and the chairman and the icemaster refused to speculate on the chances as they know it's largely dependent on the weather which can go both ways. If it starts to thaw on Monday as expected then the race will not be held. But weather prediction isn't 100% accurate. So WP as an encyclopedia should also not engage in speculation. I removed the section after a Dutch user had noticed it on the Dutch Village Pump and I agreed with him. So I'm not alone in taking this view. S_peakF_ree ^(talk)_(contribs) 15:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Vereniging De Friese Elfsteden is a primary source, which shouldn't be used unless there is no secondary source for the fact being referenced. What en.Wiki and nl.Wiki do are separate things, and what is/isn't done on one has no bearing on what is/isn't done on the other. As I said above, let's see how this plays out. Once a decision is made on the race, then it will be clear as to whether or not the 2012 info stays of goes/gets recycled elsewhere in the article. Per WP:BRD, you boldly removed the info, I reverted your removal, and now we discuss the issue.

Yes I know that but except when the media quote the Vereniging they are engaging in speculation. As they are the only source with a thorough knowledge of the route. There is no other independent source testing the ice. S_peakF_ree ^(talk)_(contribs) 16:03, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

As for the individual races, I envisage that each could have its own subsection in the History section, but that means finding sources. I managed to find a quality source for the 1940 race, which is why I added the 1940 subsection (since retitled). Mjroots (talk) 15:48, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

The 2012 part is way too long so you could better introduce it with a two line summary and then put a main article tag above it referring to a special page about the 2012 race. Or expand the history section. Having a 2012 section which is nearly as long as more than 100 years of Elfstedentocht history gives undue weight to current events. And that's recentism. S_peakF_ree ^(talk)_(contribs) 16:03, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course one could (and maybe should) expand the discussion of the older events - the events in the 1940's in particular need a disucssion due to their political significance, but given the sensitivity of that era, discussions need to be well backed up. As regards the 2012 event, a significant amount of the material can be moved elsewhere in the article - the closing of sluices and the reduction in navigation on the canals to improve the thickness of the ice (and the tourist trade!) are of on-going significance regardless of whether the race takes place or not. Martinvl (talk) 16:14, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

The 1940 race took place BEFORE the war on 30 January 1940. The Netherlands got involved in World War 2 on 10 May 1940 when the Germans invaded. Before that date, like in WW1 the Dutch government had adopted a policy of neutrality. The 1940 race was special because 4 riders decided in advance to cross the finish line together (the "Pact van Dokkum") and they all of them got credited (which was promptly forbidden in the rules). The 1941 race took place during the war but the Germans generally let sports activities continue during the war. AFAIK there was no political controversy around it.

The most memorable race was the race of 1963, which was held under extreme weather conditions. Of the 10,000 riders who started only 69 crossed the finish line. Two years ago a movie was made about it "De Hel van '63". S_peakF_ree ^(talk)_(contribs) 16:31, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

SF, the recentism problem is acknowledged. This is a temporary state of affairs that will be resolved in a few days or so. Please bear with us whilst events unfold. Mjroots (talk) 17:05, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

"Please bear with us till events unfold..." that is not a encyclopedic motto as far as I know ;-). Clearly WP:NOTCRYSTAL as Speak Free states should be applied here, as is the totally uneven balance which is prominent in the article in this state. You could make a article in your own namespace, as far as I see, this article should not be used as a temporary notebook to bring together information that will clearly be deleted when the event and thus the separate article does not take place. Joost 99 (talk) 17:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Joost, another editor has clearly said that some of the material will be used regardless of whether or not the race takes place. Removal of the material now will hinder that process. Mjroots (talk) 18:14, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I read that, but the information as it is shown now, will be deleted. That it will hinder the process, I doubt that, most all articles on Wikipedia are written in hindsight ;-) Joost 99 (talk) 19:54, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

• As a non-involved editor here, I see no consensus to remove the section based on the comments so far alone. As an involved editor, SpeakFree, you are perhaps not best-placed to insist on the content's removal, as this is clearly a content dispute. Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 18:08, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

There is also no consensus to leave it. But I guess this has to be. I've stuck a Recentism tag on the History section as the 2012 speculation covers nearly half of the section, with 100 years of Elfstedentocht history in the other half. It shouldn't even be there, as it is a future event, if it takes place at all. S_peakF_ree ^(talk)_(contribs) 18:39, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

@Mjroots and others, do not speculate. Also the sources used (KNMI) were false and misleading. Readers who don't read proper Dutch can't verify that those sources were false and misleading. I strongly suggest that a 2012-event is only mentioned when the organisation declares a go-ahead. Sonty (talk) 19:44, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Sonty, there is not requirement that a reader has to be able to verify the source. The requirement is that the fact is verifiable. Whilst English sources are preferred, non-English sources are perfectly fine where these are not available. I'm not sure what you mean by "false and misleading" sources. The Koninklijk Nederlands Meteorologisch Instituut is the Dutch equivalent of the British Met Office, is it not? I understand that the forecasts are for the central Netherlands, but I doubt that there will be a vast difference in north west Netherlands weather to that of the central Netherlands. Mjroots (talk) 02:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, this isn't worth a war over. I've started the 2012 page in my user space User:Mjroots/2012 Elfstedentocht. Editors interested in bashing some shape into the article are welcome to do so. Mjroots (talk) 02:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Case study

I have reworked the text that we had for the 2012 non-event to illustrate what happens in practice - the committee met on 6 February and the race could have been run on 11 February. As far as I am aware, no other event in the world is arranged at such short notice, which makes this schedule notable. Martinvl (talk) 17:15, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Variants

After these edits [6] [7] by Martinvl, I am puzzled. The bicycle tour is on this page, but elsewhere the navbox "does not belong" there? Also, an "Alternative" tour (i.e. 200 km on natural ice elsewhere) is not mentioned. I see no reason to differentiate between variants. -DePiep (talk) 13:00, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

The notability of the bicycle event has been challenged - the challengers probably have a case, but it is worthy of an article as part of another page. I added it to the Elfstedentocht some time ago as an insurance against an administrator removing it altogether. I see no problem with adding a mention of the "Alternative" tour.

Which "navbox" are you talking about?Martinvl (talk) 13:18, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

- "Navbox" is the "navigation template" you deleted (see 2nd diff I provided).

- Clearly, the page on bicycling exists so we can use it. Its notability is not for discussion on this talkpage.

More to the point: if the topic is in this page, it is part of the Elfstedentocht-range, and so can be noted in the navbox and that navbox can be on the article page. The same is valid for those Alternatives (on ice): mentionable here, and add navbox to an existing page. Or, conversely: if another page has "nothing to do with it", it sould not be on this page either (e.g. the section on the bicycle race + link to Main article). My point is: it should work both weays for every variant. -DePiep (talk) 17:01, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Tour and/or race?

As someone with no knowledge of the event, I comment that the distinction between tour and race is confusing and used inconsistently. What the article says at the time of this comment: [Note: this whole issue is basically due to my misinterpreting comments relevant to the cycle tour only, the only points remaining refer to the number of entrants and the roles of the 200 & 16000, see my comment later in this section. Have marked as deleted the erroneous questions ***]

• there is a race with 200 entrants
• there is a tour with 16000 entrants
• the event was a race but became a tour on an unspecified date
• lots of references to the "race" being held

Clarifications needed:

• What is the current race? 200 participants in the full tour selected to race maybe not restricted to 25kph average? A different event over a different, or the same, route?
• If it is a tour, how are winners selected and defined?
• When did it change?

Another, point: what does 16000 entrants to tour mean? Exactly 16000 (limited to)? About 16000? By rule? When (this figure may change from race to race)? Same for 200 in race.

Pol098 (talk) 15:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Reading between the lines, it looks like either a professional/amateur distinction or a type of entrant distinction, however reports of the most recent races make no mention of the difference between "competitors" and "tourists".

The Elfstedentocht gives nowadays in total place to around 16000 people by rule. Of them, around 215 selected male race skaters start first and 1 one of them will be the male winner (selected race skaters are skaters that have shown high skating results in the past). Around 90 selected female racers will start after the male racers have started, 1 of them will be the female winner. The male and female winner will be the one that crosses the finish line first with all rules respected (cardinal rule in that: all stamps gathered).
After the women have started, the recreational skaters will start in waves.
All who skate the Elfstedentocht will do the same route along the eleven cities on the very same day. If one of these elements can't be implemented, there will be no Elfstedentocht. Selection of the race skaters and recreational skaters is done under the rules of the organisation and by the "De Friesche Elf Steden".
In the old days it could be differrent with smaller total numbers of skaters, no women-race etc. Sonty (talk) 22:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

*** Useful points, and someone who knows the topics and can quote sources should update the article.

Some of my questions, and some changes I made to the article, changing "race" to "tour" in several places, are due to an error I made: I read "as a safety precaution it ceased to be a race but has become a tour with a maximum average speed of 25 km/h between checkpoints" without noticing that it applied to the cycle, not skating tour. I have struck out my erroneous questions in this section. So maybe "tour" needs to be changed back to "race" in several places in the article. Apologies for the confusion. Pol098 (talk) 07:00, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

There are often subtleties in translation - for example the Dutch words "neef" and "nicht" translate to the English word "nephew", "niece" and "cousin". It is quite likely that there is a similar subtlety in the word "tocht". The Elfstedentocht ice event is certainly a race because at least some of the entrants are ranked 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc.

Like the Elfstedentocht, the London Marathon has two classes of runner - about "elite" runners and 25000 ordinary runners. The elite are accorded entry automatically (based on previous marathon times), but entry´for ordinary runners is by lot. It is possible (but unlikely) for an "ordinary runner" to win the race. Martinvl (talk) 07:51, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. If course, there are two classes by organisation, so we will have to come up with two words -- when describig these details. Interestingly, the word "tocht" translates to "tour", yet it is common practice to call it a "race". I definitely dislike the British "amateur" (not correct, old, and British-English only). Is used "trip" once. Anyway, we could well use a full paragraph or section to describe the two eh matches. Doesn't have to be all in the lead though. -DePiep (talk) 08:17, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

The English word "amateur" has a legal meaning - "not for money". An amateur sportsman does not get paid a fee to appear, a professional sportsman does. There are also possible tax implications for prize moeny given to amateur and profesional sportsmen. Although the diffrence between the two is blurred now, thrity years ago there was a very real difference - for example at that time, no professional sportsman could enter the Comrades Marathon - there was a contraversy over a 35-yearold whose entry was disallowed because he had fought a ferw professional boxing matches when he was 18! As regards the word "tour" - the Tour de France is very much a professional race!

The article nl:Vijftiende Elfstedentocht describes the difference between the start procedure for the wedstijders, the tourrijders and the zwarterijders. Martinvl (talk) 08:53, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

So what do you suggest? Start writing in French? -DePiep (talk) 10:57, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

No - first and foremost, the ice event should be described as is a race, but as the cycle event does not award 1st, 2nd, 3rd place etc it cannot be a race, but is a tour. In the ice event, if there was no race, there would not be any tourists, but the cycle event everybody is a tourist. Martinvl (talk) 11:06, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Cycle event? This thread is about describing both the ice tour and the ice race correctly. -DePiep (talk) 12:56, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect use of the word Pseudonym

"The tour of 1985 was terminated prematurely because of thawing; as early as 22:00 in the evening skaters were taken off the ice. In 1986 the Dutch Crown Prince Willem-Alexander completed the Elfstedentocht under the name W.A. van Buren, Van Buren being a traditional pseudonym of the Royal House." The name van Buren refers to a subsidiary title of the King (qQueen) of the Netherlands: Baron(esse) van Buren. As such, the name van Buren is not a pseudonym. The name ( and its title of Baron) can be used in the manner of a courtesy title by the crown prince. It is a common misunderstanding by the Dutch, whereas Dutch heraldy allows for courtesy titles and there is nothing "pseudonym" in using the name van Buren. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.151.107.14 (talk) 13:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC)