Talk:Kennington Park

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Where did the timeline come from? Let's hope it is not a copyvio. --Tagishsimon

No it is all my own work over many years Szczels 16:17, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Should the dates have those link things put round them? DoneSzczels Chaikney 21:58, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Photos all taken by Chloe Bowles 2004

Facts needed:

• Does anyone know the year or date the swimming pool was closed? Done tick

• When was the skatebowl put in - 197?

Answer from Cllr Andrew Sawdon: "the skate-board went in in approximately 1978, on some derlict tennis courts, at the same time at the skate-board park, at stockwell road in brixton. I did radio interviews on it at the time, where the angle put to me was "isnt this a waste of money, isnt it, skakeboarding is just a short term fad surely!"

skatebowl 1

skatebowl 2

skatebowl 3

• When was the all weather pitch opened?

• When was Kennington Park East designated public open space?

Comment from Cllr Andrew Sawdon: "This idea of "designatated open space' is misunderstood (I dont think that there is any such thing, as "designating" somewhere as public opens space, except in terms of town planning which did not come into to 1947). It was common land (which meant that people had the right to graze animals on it etc) it was enclosed by act of parliament, which turned it into a park (one of the earliest municipal parks) with then the then chancellor the exchequer disraeli, offering public money for to match privately raised funds for laying out. Details of official opening etc can be found in the Marie Draper book." Confusion here surely - Kennington Park east was housing before WW2 after which the 'slums' were cleared. The common land referes to the historic western landscaped part of the park with its matured trees. Szczels 21:14, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

• When were the railing reinstated around Kennington Park? (I can remember them being replaced around St Marks in the 1980s) Szczels 16:17, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Notes on the sources of my information

NOTES ON THE SOURCES OF INFORMATION ON KENNINGTON PARK

• Introduction: I was living right next to Kennington Park for eight years fbefore I started to realise it had an interesting history. Much of my information was gathered in an informal way rather through scholarly research (although I have now done a PhD) so exact or authoritative references are difficult to give on all points. However some notes may help those interested in the quality of information offered here, especially as this is an issue for Wikipedia.

Another point is that I aimed to give a sense of the history by inferring things from context. e.g. William Blake lived nearby and being the person he was must surely have visited the spouting hole that the common was. Tom Paine visited Blake and we can imagine that with their interest in democracy Blake would have taken Paine to the speakers corner. This is conjecture but it immediately gives a clearer sense of what was going on at the common (at least for those who know anything about Blake or Paine!)

Having said this much research needs to be done and I see this timeline a pointer for researchers rather than the last word summary of decades of scholarly work.

• Capital Punishment: The records of the hangings are kept with those of Surrey as the area was originally part of Surrey rather than inner London as it now is. This means that studies of 'The London Hanged' (Peter Linebaugh) barely mention Kennington Common. There is a small hand-typed study that is kept in the Lambeth Archive at the Minet Library (Kennington Commons Gallows by George H. Wright 1997). Some hangings were famous and widely reported in the newspapers of the day - e.g. The Nine members of The Manchester Regiment who were hung drawn and quartered in 1746.

A list of those executed is now online. See: [1]

• The Chartists: The Chartist 'monster rally' of 10th April 1848 is what I'd call an incontravertible fact. The idea that the common was enclosed in response to that event was something that occured to me like a light going on in my head whilst immersed in this part of the research. It is my interpretation and seems very likely to be true rather than an incontravertible fact.

What is more certain is that historians have tended to represent the Chartists as a failure with 10th April 1848. Again I think that this is due to their vested interests rather than anything of a factual nature. See Dorothy Thompson's work for a more sympathetic approach.

According to her there is still no authoritative overview of Chartism. This is partly due to the fact that Chartism was a federation of small groups widely spread and partly the above mentioned bias against working class self activity.

The tired old case for Chartism as a failure can be found in "Failed Chartist Demonstration in London' History Today Vol 48 issue 4 pp 34/35 1998

• John Wesley and Methodism: I would love to find the speeches that he or George Whitfield made on the common. There is a small Wesley museum in London...

• Cricket history. Details were taken from the web and have not been verified in archives. Note how the formation of the SCCC happened in time for cricket to be cleared from the common by the enclosure. See also more comments below...

• Prehistory c1500BC Recently discovered post stumps in the South Thames foreshore point to a ritual jetty or the first London Bridge. This was from a 'Time Team' television show on archeology around 2002.

[2]

• Other early informations are taken from secondary sources in the local archive. These are old but rarely contemporary so may be liable to error.

• The Horns Tavern is fascinating although again, sources of information are a couple of old magazine articles in the archive and I don't know if any of the papers from the Horns survive anywhere.

• "1824 St Marks Church by D.R.Roper, built on enclosed common land over the river Effra. Promoted as the 'salvation of the common'." There may be surviving records kept by Church of England authorities but the bias that these records are likely to contain is clear from the history.

• First photo of a crowd Just how the negative of the first photograph of a crowd taken by William Kilburn got to be kept in the Royal archives at Windsor Castle is another story I'd like to hear more about. That the right to such an iconic image of the dawn of modernity should be owned by the Queen of England an almost laughable reflection on the owning classes fear of the masses.

• The Enclosures. The key work on enclosure, according to Linebaugh is:

J.M. Neeson Commoners: common right, enclosure and social change in England 1700 - 1820 Cambridge 1993 The enclosures signified a profound change in human relations to their means of subsistence.

• 1854 Kennington Park opened maintained by the Crowns Office of Works. Who controlled the park and when, needs more research and there is probably stuff to be found as there are many records from this era. It is said that KP was the first 'Municipal Public park' but the details of this claim have yet to be clarified. Does this refer to 1887 when KP maintenance passed over to London's Metropolitan Board of Works?

• 1900 Bandstand completed with seated concerts from military bands playing there until 1950 Sundays, Wednesdays and bank holidays - This was 'Rational Recreation'. This idea comes mainly from Chris Water's 'British Socialists and the Politics of Popular Culture 1884- 1914' Manchester UP 1990. It is shocking how socialists undermined working class cultural self-activity and promoted middle class ideas of culture. See also my own Conspiracy of Good Taste Working Press 1993.

• KP and war. The Imperial War Museum has an archive within a short walk of KP and I have to admit not to have done much work there. The intensity of the impact of the world wars onto the local communities and the park is hard to communicate in a timeline.

• 1926 KP reoccupied during the General Strike More to be done on this. Where is the best archive of London on the General Strike?

• Mass gatherings return to the park in the 1970s. I did do some scholarly work here in the records of the local council. It was however shocking what had been lost. I do have a detailed list of park usuage from 1986 to 1996 at least.

• Conclusion: Much to be done but this rough timeline does at least indicate that there is no doubt that Kenningto Park is a site of historical importance and that it deserves to be the focus of more research.

Please do add in comments...

Back to Kennington_Park timeline

The metaphor of a 'level playing field' as relating to the idea of the commons, has come to me from Tony Moody who runs the local cricket project, which uses Catchy Shubby cricket as a selector mechanism that creates a level playing field. Catchy Shubby Cricket was invented in Jamaica but is resisted by the English Cricket establishment who do not want interference with their selection proceedures.

The idea that the flood silt would re-level the playing fields every season makes a lot of sense in relation to the early references to games being played on the common. There is even some speculation that cricket may have been invented on the Kennington common green! (The earliest image of cricket on a badge seems to be an image of the common).

Szczels 14:28, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

The Local Equadorian community tried to get permissions to play volleyball again in 2005. They faced opposition local and institutional. We sent more letters of support but Lambeth Council would only make impractical offers. updateSzczels The same local people are also against so-called organised football teams playing in the park. (Football stopped by park rangers see Photo and report March 2006)

The reason this is relevant to Wikipedia is because of the repression/enclosure of the commons.

Large scale marches and protests do not start in the park any more. See what may have been the last one here last march This may be due to the large public liability insurance that Lambeth Council demand as much as it is local opposition. But its hard to know because no one is open about these things... We did at least have Benson's funfair in the park over the last ten days. Szczels 15:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't know where to start with this. It needs to turn into an encyclopedia article - its too chatty and too much irrelevent detail. We don't need the comments on the date of the release of Nelson Mandela or local friends group members referred to (unless they've done something that is really memorable - NB I live 10 mins walk away and I haven't heard of any of these people). The key points need picking out - they are being lost in lots of noise. A couple of random thoughts - was the Rastafarian temple originally one of the squatted St Agnes Place houses? I think that was to do with a park extension that didn't happen. The patch of grass on the side of Camberwell New Road is separate I believe - I think it's called Kennington Open Space. Secretlondon 00:50, 27 September 2005 (UTC) (The park extension is about to happen and you are right about the Camberwell New Road green. Szczels (The article has been cleaned up since this comment!)Szczels 12:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok I can agree about some of the chat Secret London but the 'relevance' of the detail is up to me, as I am living next to the park and obsessed with it, to judge. I have removed some of the contextual data which could also be seen as irrelevant, such as the date of Mandela's release. The fact you have never heard of people is exactly why I have put so much time into researching this place, much of its history was unmarked and largely unappreciated locally. I think that the style of a wikipedia entry has to get a balance between being live history, which can be noisy and in-the-process- of-interpetation and the a succinct and dry summary of key information. That balance is what I'm aiming at. Also it was criticised for being a timeline not being the correct format but why not? It allows a lot of informaton and space for people to make their own interpretations. The point about KP is that is has a hidden history (ie secret london!) and its histories are open to interpretation. This interpretation is crucial to the way the park is viewed, funded and used today! We need to keep Wikipedia diverse and open and not let it get to rigidly stylised Szczels 14:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Some minor edits and a question

I've made a few minor edits - I've left 'gymbasium' - should this be gymnasium?

Two other points: my understanding is that a large burial pit from the ?1666? plague is at the intersection of the roads to the west of St Marks: true? worth adding?

And, secondly, the ?old chesnut? about 'secret' tunnels under the common - leading where? for what purpose? kept secret by/for whom?

John Courtneidge

Yes gymnasium! I know nothing of the burial pit or it being on the common. What is your source of information? Secret tunnels again I know nothing but there may well be tunnels associated with the early Underground e.g. ventilation etc. or going off cellars of previously adjacent buildings... Maybe the London Underground could be persuaded to divulge information - but I doubt it in the current climate of fear. Szczels 13:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The plague pit story may be down to confusion between the Kennington Plague Houses on Kennington Road [3] and the plague pits at Vauxhall.--Lang rabbie 19:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

It would appear that Kennington is still regarded as an appanage of royalty; at all events, it gave the title of earl to the hero of Culloden, William the "butcher," Duke of Cumberland, the younger son of George II. The duke's name is kept in remembrance here by Cumberland Row, close by the Vestry Hall, Kennington Green: it forms a low row of cottages, bearing date 1666. Their unfinished carcases had been used as a lazarhouse during the great plague of the previous year. :From Old and New London by Walter Thornbury first published 1878

Can you give the date of this book and page number? Szczels

I have edited and included a link to the version at British History Online.--Lang rabbie 01:48, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The shelter disaster and the new memorial

I was shocked to see the extent of the trenches over the south field in Rob Patemans excellent pamphlet. Somehow the extent of the horror of it got through to me. And of course there were many more bodies left than I had estimated from my original research in Lambeth Archives in 1996/7. See links on main page for text.

Also the story related on [4] Perhaps I should put this photo on the main page? Szczels 12:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Stefan, should there be a mention that the text of the memorial is misquoted? It's only a slight change, but the original text uses "and" where the inscription uses "but". The poem was given at the inauguration in 1993 of President Clinton, and can be read in full here. Coconino 09:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

An interesting point. I don't know what to think about thisSzczels 12:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Maya Angelou herself used "but" in her 1993 reading at the inauguration (as evidenced on this Youtube video clipat c. 04:35), so I suggest no amendment is required. Lang rabbie 20:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Aha! So she does! Thank's for that clarification; it seems the Clinton Foundation web site is in error. Coconino 14:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Eighties Bonfire event(s)?

There was a Theatre event in the east park extension in the Eighties one November 5th. There were giant effigies of Thatcher and ? and a bonfire It was really spectacular especially for people in the Brandon towers. Anyone have any date and details? The theatre company? etc. Szczels 12:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Chartism

"Chartism was the first national working class organisation and the rally on 10 April 1848 the high point of the Chartist movement."

I'd dispute that. The movement had been in decline for years by 1848. The Kennington Common rally was more a last hurrah than a high point. Legion 22:48, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I take your point Legion. I think 'high point' can be taken in different ways. Perhaps I should say the event was the most famous challenge of Chartism or something... to be more precise. What do you think is the most authoritative account on Chartism? Szczels 12:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Now, I'm afraid that when it comes to that I'm less help. I'm afriad my knowldge of Chartism is only at A-level.... level, so I'm no expert on Chartist historiography. I could randomly shout out names I've come across, but I doubt that would be much help. : /

The rally at Kennington was one of the most famous events in the movement's history I'd say. But not necessarily the most famous. I think the entry itself could be trimmed down a bit: the description of Chartism could be covered simply by a link to the Wiki article on Chartism itself.

What, I wonder, is the provenance of the "monster"? Is it an attempt at a joke?

Sorry if I come off as a bit impolite. It's late, and I'm never particularly good at choosing my words at the best of times. ^^; Legion 23:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Railings

The original park railings of the enclosure where removed in the WW1. But when were they replaced and with what money? By my memory I would say it was in the mid to late Eighties... Szczels (talk) 13:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Post 2007 events please?

It is a pity no-one wants to keep this updated since I left the area... The Children's playground was finished and opened. When? I'm sure other notable events have taken place... Szczels (talk) 09:47, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Just taken out suspecting a hoax

"Kennington Park is often erroneously cited as the birthplace of English-born backyard wrestler "Dynamite Dragon" Gareth-Davis King. While his official ring introduction does have him hailing from "The Mean Streets of Kennington Park", he actually lived in nearby DeLaune Street, and has often returned to his local neighbourhood to help promote independent backyard wrestling promotions and encourage cross promotion between English promtions, and his own West Australian based Modern Athletic Wrestling League. He often cites the area around Kennington Park as a big influence on him as a child." Needs dates and to be put in timeline if he actually existed! Szczels (talk) 15:58, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

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